Insurrection fallout

[Guy Chamberlin]

On 6/21/2023 at 1:56 PM, Archy1221 said:

I’m glad he got the sentence he got.  I’m also glad we now have precedence of a 12 year sentence for all assaults on LEO’s while on the line of duty.  
 

We may want to circle back to the BLM riots and get some charges and 12 year sentences going that went relatively unpunished. 

 

WashingtonCNN — 

The Justice Department targeted more than 300 protesters by charging them with federal crimes for their roles during the civil unrest last summer after the murder of George Floyd, according to a new report from The Movement for Black Lives, a coalition of Black advocacy groups.

The report found that more than 90% of federal cases against Black Lives Matter protesters could have been charged in state court – and that in 88% of those cases, the federal charges carried more severe penalties than similar state charges.

“This persecution resulted in hundreds of organizers and activists facing years in federal prison with no chance of parole,” the report read. It was co-authored by CUNY School of Law’s Creating Law Enforcement Accountability & Responsibility Clinic.

 

 

The report also contends that federal officials have tried to suppress Black social movements going back decades. For instance, at the direction of former FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover, officials spied on and interrogated leaders associated with the Black Panther Party as well as Angela Davis, Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X.

According to the report, this was done “in a deliberate bid to infiltrate, penetrate, disorganize, and disrupt the Black movements for rights, power, and freedom, and to preserve the established white supremacist order.”

The report, which focused on the period of nationwide civil unrest sparked by Floyd’s death in May 2020 at the hands of police in Minneapolis, was released this week. It was first reported by The Associated Press.

Federal officials filed a litany of charges against racial justice protesters over five months after Floyd’s death, including 105 for arson, 49 for civil disorder, 45 for assault against an officer and 30 felon-in-possession of a weapon cases.

According to the report, the “vast majority of charges brought were for non-violent offenses or offenses that were potentially hazardous but were restricted to property destruction, not violence against people.”

Federal arson charges carry a minimum sentence of five years in prison, and offenders can be incarcerated anywhere in the country, while in state court there are different degrees of arson charges, including some that can be classified as misdemeanors carrying up to one year in a local jail, according to the report.

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[Archy1221]

51 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

The Movement for Black Lives, a coalition of Black advocacy groups

 

But since you are trying, we will take a little look at the numbers.   

52 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

45 for assault against an officer

Roughly 1200 were injured and 30 killed.  Charging 45 people!?!?

 

[FrankWheeler]

15 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

 

But since you are trying, we will take a little look at the numbers.   

Roughly 1200 were injured and 30 killed.  

where do these numbers come from?

[Guy Chamberlin]

On 8/18/2023 at 9:51 AM, Archy1221 said:

 

But since you are trying, we will take a little look at the numbers.   

Roughly 1200 were injured and 30 killed.  Charging 45 people!?!?

 

 

I'm not sure you understand how debating works. 

[commando]

On 8/18/2023 at 12:07 PM, FrankWheeler said:

where do these numbers come from?

my guess is a nether region based websight

[Guy Chamberlin]

Here's just one rebuttal. There are many more you could grab in a :10 Google search. 

 

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/jun/10/facebook-posts/post-inflates-number-police-killed-connection-prot/

 

Hard as it is to believe, dips#!t propagandists simply invented numbers and/or borrowed dead policeman from previous months, unrelated policing actions and even COVID deaths in order to undermine the civil rights protests and distract from their own stew of bad behavior. You wouldn't believe the people who swallowed it without question and passed it along as fact. 

[Archy1221]

1 hour ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

Here's just one rebuttal. There are many more you could grab in a :10 Google search. 

 

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/jun/10/facebook-posts/post-inflates-number-police-killed-connection-prot/

 

Hard as it is to believe, dips#!t propagandists simply invented numbers and/or borrowed dead policeman from previous months, unrelated policing actions and even COVID deaths in order to undermine the civil rights protests and distract from their own stew of bad behavior. You wouldn't believe the people who swallowed it without question and passed it along as fact. 

https://www.wdrb.com/news/national/police-chief-association-releases-number-of-officers-injured-nationwide-during-violent-protests/article_db673920-34ab-11eb-9431-a3e24704f86a.html#:~:text=(FOX NEWS) -- More than,a report released in October.
 

More than 2,000 law enforcement officers were injured in the first weeks of protests over the summer following the police killing of George Floyd, according to a report released in October.

The Major Cities Chiefs Association, a professional association comprised of local law enforcement heads from the 69 largest police agencies in the United States and nine in Canada, detailed the unrest and compiled data from protests between May 25 and July 31 in MCCA member cities.

 

:05 sec google search

[Archy1221]

1 hour ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

Here's just one rebuttal. There are many more you could grab in a :10 Google search. 

 

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/jun/10/facebook-posts/post-inflates-number-police-killed-connection-prot/

 

Hard as it is to believe, dips#!t propagandists simply invented numbers and/or borrowed dead policeman from previous months, unrelated policing actions and even COVID deaths in order to undermine the civil rights protests and distract from their own stew of bad behavior. You wouldn't believe the people who swallowed it without question and passed it along as fact. 

Just New York from those dips#!t propagandists known as local nbc news. 
 

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/nearly-400-nypd-officers-hurt-during-nycs-two-weeks-of-protest-over-george-floyds-death/2455285/?amp=1

[Guy Chamberlin]

Let's ignore the 30 officer deaths that remained unmentioned in your link and go with this pretty fair assessment:

 

https://apnews.com/article/records-rebut-claims-jan-6-rioters-55adf4d46aff57b91af2fdd3345dace8

 

Executive summary: some BLM rioters got pretty tough sentences that continue to be prosecuted under Biden's DOJ. Less violent protestors plea bargained down to lesser charges. Not unlike J6, thousands of BLM protestors arrested were deemed not to warrant serious charges and legal prosecution. The J6 discrepancy some want to promote falls short under scrutiny. 

 

Sidebar: in terms of actions and consequences, how would you compare looting a Best Buy and resisting arrest with the violent invasion the U.S. Capitol intent on denying the Constitutional transfer of power, complete with death threats and police bashing?

[funhusker]

48 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

Let's ignore the 30 officer deaths that remained unmentioned in your link and go with this pretty fair assessment:

 

https://apnews.com/article/records-rebut-claims-jan-6-rioters-55adf4d46aff57b91af2fdd3345dace8

 

Executive summary: some BLM rioters got pretty tough sentences that continue to be prosecuted under Biden's DOJ. Less violent protestors plea bargained down to lesser charges. Not unlike J6, thousands of BLM protestors arrested were deemed not to warrant serious charges and legal prosecution. The J6 discrepancy some want to promote falls short under scrutiny. 

 

Sidebar: in terms of actions and consequences, how would you compare looting a Best Buy and resisting arrest with the violent invasion the U.S. Capitol intent on denying the Constitutional transfer of power, complete with death threats and police bashing?

If BLM protestors that broke windows are getting jailed, the traitors that ransacked the Capital should be executed.

 

Just my opinion…

[teachercd]

4 hours ago, funhusker said:

If BLM protestors that broke windows are getting jailed, the traitors that ransacked the Capital should be executed.

 

Just my opinion…

I have said that soooo many times.

 

Things are not always so nuanced, in fact, most of the time they are super easy to figure out.

 

If you stepped foot in the Capital on J6, you should be executed.  

 

The BLM stuff is so different because it was not really BLM, BLM is essentially a bad ponzie scheme BUT the people that started it did nothing more than say "give us money" and morons gave them money.  So, I am fine with that.

 

Anyone that was "Protesting" during BLM that did anything against the law should face whatever the typical punishment would be for that crime.  With that said, I do believe that "mob mentality" should be treated a bit harsher than two 17 year old kids throwing a rock through a window.  

[Guy Chamberlin]

15 hours ago, teachercd said:

I have said that soooo many times.

 

Things are not always so nuanced, in fact, most of the time they are super easy to figure out.

 

If you stepped foot in the Capital on J6, you should be executed.  

 

The BLM stuff is so different because it was not really BLM, BLM is essentially a bad ponzie scheme BUT the people that started it did nothing more than say "give us money" and morons gave them money.  So, I am fine with that.

 

Anyone that was "Protesting" during BLM that did anything against the law should face whatever the typical punishment would be for that crime.  With that said, I do believe that "mob mentality" should be treated a bit harsher than two 17 year old kids throwing a rock through a window.  

 

I honestly believe a majority of J6 participants were legitimate angry protestors who fell easy prey to an organized minority with a more advanced agenda. There was obviously a lot of mob mentality at work; most folks inside the Capitol looked more giddy than violent, like they couldn't believe the whole thing was happening. Many weren't bright to begin with and no doubt figured the "leaders" who were literally leading them into the Capitol had an end game in mind. Meanwhile, enjoy the anarchy, take pictures in Nancy Pelosi's office, s#!t on the floor if you gotta pinch one -- you are in the midst of something truly historic!

 

When you envision Donald Trump - your President - ready to sweep in on your heels, take over the Senate Chamber, and reclaim the Presidency,  you probably do convince yourself you're on the right side of law and order. 

So of course it's nuanced. And I think a prosecution strategy that takes into account the difference between dimwitted cattle and the people who happily position themselves as violence provoking leaders is appropriate. 

[funhusker]

31 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

I honestly believe a majority of J6 participants were legitimate angry protestors who fell easy prey to an organized minority with a more advanced agenda. There was obviously a lot of mob mentality at work; most folks inside the Capitol looked more giddy than violent, like they couldn't believe the whole thing was happening. Many weren't bright to begin with and no doubt figured the "leaders" who were literally leading them into the Capitol had an end game in mind. Meanwhile, enjoy the anarchy, take pictures in Nancy Pelosi's office, s#!t on the floor if you gotta pinch one -- you are in the midst of something truly historic!

 

When you envision Donald Trump - your President - ready to sweep in on your heels, take over the Senate Chamber, and reclaim the Presidency,  you probably do convince yourself you're on the right side of law and order. 

So of course it's nuanced. And I think a prosecution strategy that takes into account the difference between dimwitted cattle and the people who happily position themselves as violence provoking leaders is appropriate. 

I could handle the “followers” getting 5-10 years in federal prison.  But the folks at the front breaking windows and invading the building? Hang ‘em.

 

Abraham Lincoln and the North were far more gracious than I would have been.

[Guy Chamberlin]

Here's a fun game: imagine if Donald Trump convinced enough of the U.S. military that election integrity had been breached, declared martial law, surrounded himself with loyalists and physically refused to leave office?

 

Would you join a protest? Surround the White House? Would you breach the grounds if suddenly the gates to the White House were toppled? Would you go Mussolini or Ceaușescu on Trump's a$$, or stop the people attempting to do so? Would you wait for the nation's system of check and balances to reassert itself? 

 

This happens in other countries, but apparently it's a scenario Donald Trump had entertained. 

[teachercd]

54 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

I honestly believe a majority of J6 participants were legitimate angry protestors who fell easy prey to an organized minority with a more advanced agenda. There was obviously a lot of mob mentality at work; most folks inside the Capitol looked more giddy than violent, like they couldn't believe the whole thing was happening. Many weren't bright to begin with and no doubt figured the "leaders" who were literally leading them into the Capitol had an end game in mind. Meanwhile, enjoy the anarchy, take pictures in Nancy Pelosi's office, s#!t on the floor if you gotta pinch one -- you are in the midst of something truly historic!

 

When you envision Donald Trump - your President - ready to sweep in on your heels, take over the Senate Chamber, and reclaim the Presidency,  you probably do convince yourself you're on the right side of law and order. 

So of course it's nuanced. And I think a prosecution strategy that takes into account the difference between dimwitted cattle and the people who happily position themselves as violence provoking leaders is appropriate. 

That is a really good point.  I am sure a lot of them got "swept up" in the moment but that doesn't excuse them from punishment.  Maybe it makes it less harsh though?