Is it scheme or play calling?

[lo country]

50 minutes ago, Mavric said:

 

I guess people are going to continue to try to claim this no matter how many times it's shown to be false.

 

We simply didn't have many big bodies when Frost got here.  But he has consistently said and shown in his recruiting that we needed to get bigger.  Right from the start.

 

People claim that he has only recently discovered that he needed bigger linemen in the B1G.  But the first OL he signed was Will Canty who is 6-6 (though he didn't make it to campus).  In his first full class, he signed 6-9 Bryce Benhart, 6-7 Brant Banks, 6-7 Jimmy Fritzche, 6-6 Michael Lynn and 6-6 Matthew Anderson.  He initially recruited exactly what he wanted - guys with B1G frames.

 

Also in that first class - put together in two weeks - were several tall receivers in 6-6 Justin McGriff, 6-3 Katerian LeGrone, and 6-1 Andre Hunt.  It wasn't that he wasn't going after bigger receivers, it's just that the ones he was able to land in that short amount of time didn't work out.  Also in that very first class were 6-5 DE Casey Rogers, 6-3 DB Will Jackson, 6-3 DB CJ Smith, 6-3 DB Braxton Clark, 6-3 LB Caleb Tannor and 6-2 DB Cam Jones.  In a couple weeks he greatly increased the number of 6-3+ players we had on the team.

 

Along with the five OL who were at least 6-6 in that first full class, there were also 6-6 WR/TE Chris Hickman, 6-6 LB Jamin Graham, 6-6 DL Ty Robinson, 6-5 DL Mosai Newsom, 6-4 DL Jahkeem Green, 6-3 LB Garrett Nelson, 6-3 LB Jackson Hannah, 6-3 LB Nick Henrich, 6-3 LB Javin Wright and 6-3 LB Myles Farmer.  

 

It is true that we didn't manage to put any tall receivers on the field for a couple years.  But that wasn't because Frost didn't think he needed them.  He was after bigger bodies everywhere.  We just failed miserably to recruit receivers for FIVE STRAIGHT YEARS.  There were only two contributors in a five year stretch of classes from Riley through Frost - Spielman and Robinson.  They were both short and neither finished their career here.  But it wasn't from not wanting to recruit those type of players.

Even with the info above, I still feel that Frost has shifted his direction in recruiting and scheme.  Buts that’s just what I “see”.  I don’t follow enough with recruiting.  And to a degree some of his own comments.  I think that somewhere between complete change and no change is where we are at.  TBH, going 12-20 and not tweaking anything will get him fired.

 

Honest question.  Why has our recruiting been so sh1tty at the skill positions.  Year 4 and no real proven backs or receivers.  I know guys haven’t planned out, injuries and guys leaving, BUT no team should be this bare in year 4.  Is that lack of development, poor recruiting, the fact we offer like a million kids or what.  

[Hilltop]

9 hours ago, lo country said:

Even with the info above, I still feel that Frost has shifted his direction in recruiting and scheme.  Buts that’s just what I “see”.  I don’t follow enough with recruiting.  And to a degree some of his own comments.  I think that somewhere between complete change and no change is where we are at.  TBH, going 12-20 and not tweaking anything will get him fired.

 

Honest question.  Why has our recruiting been so sh1tty at the skill positions.  Year 4 and no real proven backs or receivers.  I know guys haven’t planned out, injuries and guys leaving, BUT no team should be this bare in year 4.  Is that lack of development, poor recruiting, the fact we offer like a million kids or what.  

Our recruiting hasn't been "sh1tty".  Our retention and development have been. 

 

I blame at significant part of that on the complete team rebuild interrupted by Covid shutdowns.  We got some decent guys in who left before they ever saw the field.  Several of those left to be closer to home in the middle of a country wide shutdown.  Those that did stay got very little development simply because coaches and players weren't allowed on the field together for so long.  Think of those guys from Frost's first full recruiting cycle...  Pretty hard for them to make an impact without a spring and summer with the team.  Then they were thrown in the mix in the fall with just a handful of team practices under their belt.  A good portion of them didn't even know the playbook.      

 

I believe we will see a much better team on the field this fall because they got normal spring practices, normal summer workouts, and a normal fall camp.      

[Mavric]

9 hours ago, lo country said:

Even with the info above, I still feel that Frost has shifted his direction in recruiting and scheme.  

 

Like I said, some people won't believe it no matter how many times it's shown to be false.

 

9 hours ago, lo country said:

Honest question.  Why has our recruiting been so sh1tty at the skill positions.  Year 4 and no real proven backs or receivers.  I know guys haven’t planned out, injuries and guys leaving, BUT no team should be this bare in year 4.  Is that lack of development, poor recruiting, the fact we offer like a million kids or what.  

 

This is year four for Frost as a head coach but he's only had two full recruiting classes that we've actually been able to see on the field so far.  Another thing that people don't want to hear or don't want to believe but we were totally devoid of depth at those two positions when Frost got here.  Despite three years of Keith Williams hype, he didn't recruit a single WR that contributed at Nebraska.  Not one.  IN THREE YEARS!!!!  The only WR that Riley signed that contributed was Spielman and he didn't finish his career here.  And they didn't do any better at RB where the only one they signed that contributed was Ozigbo.  That's two contributors total out of 4/5 offensive positions over a three year period.  You could hardly do that poorly if you were trying to.

 

The problem at WR was then exacerbated when Frost totally struck out in his first full class.  So we went five straight recruiting classes where we got a grand total of two WRs that amounted to anything.  In Frost's first year when he had those two - Morgan and Spielman - we were pretty good on offense.  But it takes time to rebuild from nothing.  And it doesn't help when Frost's first big WR recruit (Robinson) leaves early as well.  But we've been able to assemble several four-star guys plus a top-shelf FCS transfer so I think we'll see a big turnaround at that spot this year.

 

At RB, we had a bit of the same problem in that Frost only inherited one guy.  And they turned that one guy into a very productive season.  They recruited two pretty solid guys in their first class (Washington and Bell) but both turned into head cases and aren't around anymore.  Last year they had about everything go wrong that could.  Injuries, COVID and possibly other issues left no consistency at that spot - different guy each week.  I don't know that we have a real star there yet but I think there are enough possibilities that we'll see better production.  And they've had a full off-season to get up to speed, which they didn't have last year.

[J-MAGIC]

Our offensive scheme and playcalling have been fine and a lot of times pretty cutting edge. We won the Rutgers game after we saw their backside end was crashing down and started hammering a Bash play I had never seen them run before.

 

Sometimes they go into the grab bag a bit, but Frost has always been that way, even at Oregon, but you take the good with the bad. People who complain about bubble screens or swing passes don't understanding the function they serve. The basic truth with our offense is that our players have just not as good/experienced as most of our opponents and we're young and make bone-headed errors.

[Undone]

The scheme as it has evolved into what we saw last season is awesome and will work extremely well in the B1G.

 

But you have to have a good running back. Just have to. And losing Wan'Dale hurts a lot at the slot receiver position also.

 

Play calling, and more importantly play selection and execution, seemed a lot sharper as Lubick joined last year. Probably the only complaint I have on Frost's play calling was some of the times he didn't line up in a power set inside the five yard line and then failed on passing plays or wide running plays. Other than that I think he's a good play caller.

[floridacorn]

Virtually all of CF is running some variation of spread, including Saban, who used to rail against it.  Even power teams like Stanford & Wisconsin are incorporating more spread into their offense every year.  So, I don't see how scheme is an issue.

 

The purpose of spread is to put play makers in space and give them opportunities to make plays.  Frost hasn't gotten that at NU to the degree he's accustomed to & that missing element is going to expose some weaknesses in play calling that were often covered up by said big plays when Frost was at UCF.  

[Undone]

2 hours ago, floridacorn said:

The purpose of spread is to put play makers in space and give them opportunities to make plays.  Frost hasn't gotten that at NU to the degree he's accustomed to & that missing element is going to expose some weaknesses in play calling that were often covered up by said big plays when Frost was at UCF. 

 

Well said. And I think fans that just maybe aren't as savvy on X's & O's then assume that, given that we sort of lack those playmakers, we'd get better results if we just lined up in the Power I. But that doesn't really add up because without a Roy Helu or Rex Burkhead at RB the other team is going to just shut you down by packing the line of scrimmage with bodies.

 

And if you don't have a single wideout that a defensive coordinator has to worry about on a play action bomb it's just pretty hard to do much in the B1G.

 

Quick trip back to the Riley experiment: He ran a pro style offense and failed miserably at running out of double tight end sets between the hashes. We have better personnel for those sets now, but you still need a really good running back to make it work IMO.

 

 

[Lorewarn]

17 hours ago, Mavric said:

 

I guess people are going to continue to try to claim this no matter how many times it's shown to be false.

 

We simply didn't have many big bodies when Frost got here.  But he has consistently said and shown in his recruiting that we needed to get bigger.  Right from the start.

 

People claim that he has only recently discovered that he needed bigger linemen in the B1G.  But the first OL he signed was Will Canty who is 6-6 (though he didn't make it to campus).  In his first full class, he signed 6-9 Bryce Benhart, 6-7 Brant Banks, 6-7 Jimmy Fritzche, 6-6 Michael Lynn and 6-6 Matthew Anderson.  He initially recruited exactly what he wanted - guys with B1G frames.

 

Also in that first class - put together in two weeks - were several tall receivers in 6-6 Justin McGriff, 6-3 Katerian LeGrone, and 6-1 Andre Hunt.  It wasn't that he wasn't going after bigger receivers, it's just that the ones he was able to land in that short amount of time didn't work out.  Also in that very first class were 6-5 DE Casey Rogers, 6-3 DB Will Jackson, 6-3 DB CJ Smith, 6-3 DB Braxton Clark, 6-3 LB Caleb Tannor and 6-2 DB Cam Jones.  In a couple weeks he greatly increased the number of 6-3+ players we had on the team.

 

Along with the five OL who were at least 6-6 in that first full class, there were also 6-6 WR/TE Chris Hickman, 6-6 LB Jamin Graham, 6-6 DL Ty Robinson, 6-5 DL Mosai Newsom, 6-4 DL Jahkeem Green, 6-3 LB Garrett Nelson, 6-3 LB Jackson Hannah, 6-3 LB Nick Henrich, 6-3 LB Javin Wright and 6-3 LB Myles Farmer.  

 

It is true that we didn't manage to put any tall receivers on the field for a couple years.  But that wasn't because Frost didn't think he needed them.  He was after bigger bodies everywhere.  We just failed miserably to recruit receivers for FIVE STRAIGHT YEARS.  There were only two contributors in a five year stretch of classes from Riley through Frost - Spielman and Robinson.  They were both short and neither finished their career here.  But it wasn't from not wanting to recruit those type of players.

 

 

I don't think all of his linebackers and defensive backs have anything to do with the conversation on scheme vs playcalling and Frost adapting his offense to the big ten. Otherwise I agree.

[lo country]

7 hours ago, Hilltop said:

Our recruiting hasn't been "sh1tty".  Our retention and development have been. 

 

I blame at significant part of that on the complete team rebuild interrupted by Covid shutdowns.  We got some decent guys in who left before they ever saw the field.  Several of those left to be closer to home in the middle of a country wide shutdown.  Those that did stay got very little development simply because coaches and players weren't allowed on the field together for so long.  Think of those guys from Frost's first full recruiting cycle...  Pretty hard for them to make an impact without a spring and summer with the team.  Then they were thrown in the mix in the fall with just a handful of team practices under their belt.  A good portion of them didn't even know the playbook.      

 

I believe we will see a much better team on the field this fall because they got normal spring practices, normal summer workouts, and a normal fall camp.      

Sh!tty in maybe to eager to fill classes/get guys.  Not enough due diligence to dirt dive guys who will actually stay or are not head cases.  Covid sucked, but every school was impacted.  

 

I do think the benefit of a full off season will help.  Last time I checked, missing bowls the past 4 years has also cost us north of 50 extra practices.....That's a lot of missed opportunities....A lot.

[Hilltop]

3 minutes ago, lo country said:

Sh!tty in maybe to eager to fill classes/get guys.  Not enough due diligence to dirt dive guys who will actually stay or are not head cases.  Covid sucked, but every school was impacted.  

 

I do think the benefit of a full off season will help.  Last time I checked, missing bowls the past 4 years has also cost us north of 50 extra practices.....That's a lot of missed opportunities....A lot.

The first year they had 2 weeks to fill so not much can be said there.  Year 2 there was no way to predict what was going to happen with Covid so no amount of dirt digging would have fixed that.  I do understand your point but every school being impacted isn't the same across the board.  A school like Nebraska is asking kids to move a long ways from home and we were doing that during a complete rebuild so very little team structure was in place to help hold the guys.  I know, excuses excuses but it is reality.  It was crappy timing and I really don't think there was much you could change about the recruiting during that.     

[lo country]

7 hours ago, Mavric said:

 

Like I said, some people won't believe it no matter how many times it's shown to be false.

 

 

This is year four for Frost as a head coach but he's only had two full recruiting classes that we've actually been able to see on the field so far.  Another thing that people don't want to hear or don't want to believe but we were totally devoid of depth at those two positions when Frost got here.  Despite three years of Keith Williams hype, he didn't recruit a single WR that contributed at Nebraska.  Not one.  IN THREE YEARS!!!!  The only WR that Riley signed that contributed was Spielman and he didn't finish his career here.  And they didn't do any better at RB where the only one they signed that contributed was Ozigbo.  That's two contributors total out of 4/5 offensive positions over a three year period.  You could hardly do that poorly if you were trying to.

 

The problem at WR was then exacerbated when Frost totally struck out in his first full class.  So we went five straight recruiting classes where we got a grand total of two WRs that amounted to anything.  In Frost's first year when he had those two - Morgan and Spielman - we were pretty good on offense.  But it takes time to rebuild from nothing.  And it doesn't help when Frost's first big WR recruit (Robinson) leaves early as well.  But we've been able to assemble several four-star guys plus a top-shelf FCS transfer so I think we'll see a big turnaround at that spot this year.

 

At RB, we had a bit of the same problem in that Frost only inherited one guy.  And they turned that one guy into a very productive season.  They recruited two pretty solid guys in their first class (Washington and Bell) but both turned into head cases and aren't around anymore.  Last year they had about everything go wrong that could.  Injuries, COVID and possibly other issues left no consistency at that spot - different guy each week.  I don't know that we have a real star there yet but I think there are enough possibilities that we'll see better production.  And they've had a full off-season to get up to speed, which they didn't have last year.

I don't mind the banter, but it's the bolded. Not everything is black and white. I agree we are getting bigger guys.  I still believe Frost thought he could come in and run what and with the same style players he had at UCF and win.....He did (my opinion) and he hasn't. His best season was with guys he didn't recruit.  Guys who were recruited to play in the B1G.  

 

Has he switched/changed schemes?  I think his base is the same, but I do think he is smart enough to evolve.  Brining in Lubick makes me believe he needed another set of eyes/opinion to get over the hump.

 

I do think that we have missed on more than we have gotten. This might be the first year that we are 2 deep at most positions (save RB and WR) since Frost has been here.  I do think the defensive staff has worked hard to develop their guys.  I did not think in Chins 1st year I'd say the D is the strength of the team. Waiting for the O to catch up.  Hoping they do.  

 

As I have said multiple times, he is now in year 6 as a HC.....He inherited a team at UCF, that two years prior to his arrival was 12-1 IIRC.  Us, not so successful.....That's not a whole lot of experience too quickly right a sinking ship. Throw in roster turn over, covid, missed practices from bowl games etc....and his has been a rough 3 years.

[lo country]

4 minutes ago, Hilltop said:

The first year they had 2 weeks to fill so not much can be said there.  Year 2 there was no way to predict what was going to happen with Covid so no amount of dirt digging would have fixed that.  I do understand your point but every school being impacted isn't the same across the board.  A school like Nebraska is asking kids to move a long ways from home and we were doing that during a complete rebuild so very little team structure was in place to help hold the guys.  I know, excuses excuses but it is reality.  It was crappy timing and I really don't think there was much you could change about the recruiting during that.     

Good points. I'll ask this, will players getting paid help or hurt NU moving forward? 

[ZRod]

On 7/25/2021 at 4:52 PM, Mavric said:

Talent

 

But when we show significant improvement this year many will talk about how we’re so much better now that Lubick is calling the plays and that Frost finally figured out he had to adjust to the B1G.

You calling your shot? I'm trying to be realistic this year, but man do I want some koolaid to be excited about!

[Hilltop]

15 hours ago, lo country said:

Good points. I'll ask this, will players getting paid help or hurt NU moving forward? 

I think it will help some now and a lot once we are winning more games.  I think Nebraska could be one of the top 20 schools in this department.  

[Nebraska55fan]

15 hours ago, lo country said:

Good points. I'll ask this, will players getting paid help or hurt NU moving forward? 

 

It is going to HELP. Like it or not- the sellout streak in even bleak years shows NU fans are engaged and support our team with their wallets and time. That is what drives NIL dollars. 

 

NU is still in the top 20 when it comes to this aspect of the game. Other teams have ALWAYS paid their players, while NU has been playing by the rules for the most part. This could help put us on a more level playing field as far as recruiting goes.