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zoogs    6,367

And I accidentally deleted my post thanks to mobile....

 

The short answer is yes, the anti's don't want actual compromise any more than the NRA. Because that means a "trade" of some sort. So you have an impass of the NRA lobbying arm going up against the anti -gun lobbying arm lead by Bloomberg.

 

And then the moderates like me are stuck shaking our heads.

This doesn't really look like a moderates/extremists issue to me, with the caveat again that I'm not a gun guy, so I'm on the outside looking in.

 

It looks more like a case where the "big ticket" agenda items are perhaps mismatched to reality; i.e, the political debate is so fraught that the big pushes that can get talked about aren't necessarily the right or most relevant ones. Hence those "in the know" are stuck frustrated by sides that are concentrating on very different areas of the debate.

 

And I may be biased, but I don't think the fault for this is evenly distributed. The NRA legal arm imposing such a legal obstacle to everything is what corners political accomplishments and goals to these very limited, possibly wrongheaded areas. And their overwhelming success and influence in American politics has the other side rightly fearful of giving an inch anywhere.

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Enhance    3,498

And their overwhelming success and influence in American politics has the other side rightly fearful of giving an inch anywhere.

This is the direction my perspective leans, as well.

 

It's unclear and disputed as to whether gun ownership is actually declining, but one thing that both sides could likely agree on is that it's becoming less common for people to admit they have guns on their property or own them. That could be partly due to people being wiser about not advertising valuable property like guns, but I believe social stigmas have played a role, as well.

 

But, we can't even get nationally funded gun research. The NRA and their legal arms have been heavily against anything of the sort, which to me suggests a fear of what the research would uncover, either because it would be damning to their cause or because they believe the data would be flawed. Either way, it's a shame.

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dudeguyy    3,490

I meant to respond to your earlier post Enhance. I think our views on gun control are very similar. I too enjoy shooting occasionally. I think I'd like to own a handgun someday in the future. We recently visited my girlfriend's family in another state, and her stepdad is a HUGE gun guy. We went and shot off his collection, including a S&W 22, a huge scoped rifle with a bipod, and his .38 special. It was a good time. Responsible gun ownership almost always is.

 

But on the other hand, I talked to my dad on the phone the other night. He jokingly talked about me having political aspirations someday, and I said I was actually mulling that over. We got on to talking about the incident in VA the other day, and then I got in a rant about the state of gun rights in the US. Specifically, there's just no political momentum for reasonable gun control. There have been a fair number of us calling for that, and saunders has done a good job giving us the problems from the pro-gun side of the equation.

 

But the NRA is far too powerful a lobby right now, and the current GOP will vote far too reliable for anything pro-gun for much of anything to be done right now. As I said earlier, I fear Democrats may have to just forfeit gun control for the time being, at least strategically in certain districts, if they want to have any prayer at expanding their voter share in rural areas with lots of single-issue pro-gun voters. Simply mentioning any type of gun control in some of these places is a non-starter that will lose you votes immediately.

 

I think if I had to run a platform, it would be reasonable gun law reform like universal background checks and national license reciprocity, like saunders mentioned. The problem is if you mention that, you immediately get swamped by the NRA and whomever you're running against as some gun-taking, anti-2A liberal freedom hater. I think the best way to deal with it would be head-on... call out those groups as the incessant fear-mongerers they are and for lying about your position on guns. I still don't know how well that would work, though. There would be lots and lots of money spent to sway people to believe the opposite.

 

Lastly, here's some really pertinent reading that I read a long time ago that I managed to find. WaPo explores the decades-long process that led to the NRA fundamentally changing the legal interpretation of the Second Amendment, culminating in their win in DC vs. Heller in 2008.

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dudeguyy    3,490

Philando Castile was a licensed gun carrier. He got pulled over because his brake lights were out. He calmly alerted the officer he was carrying after giving the officer his license and registration. He was then shot seven times while reaching for his ID and died.

Just came across a story by the Minneapolis Star-Tribune syncing up the dashcam footage of the stop with the livestream that Castile's girlfriend started shortly after he was shot. Do not watch this video if you are squeamish or have a problem with shootings. Also some NSFW language.

 

My question is why aren't gun rights groups furious that the officer that shot Castile was acquitted of all charges last week? Why aren't they sticking up for Castile as a licensed, law-abiding gun owner?

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NUance    6,942

Philando Castile was a licensed gun carrier. He got pulled over because his brake lights were out. He calmly alerted the officer he was carrying after giving the officer his license and registration. He was then shot seven times while reaching for his ID and died.

 

Just came across a story by the Minneapolis Star-Tribune syncing up the dashcam footage of the stop with the livestream that Castile's girlfriend started shortly after he was shot. Do not watch this video if you are squeamish or have a problem with shootings. Also some NSFW language.

 

My question is why aren't gun rights groups furious that the officer that shot Castile was acquitted of all charges last week? Why aren't they sticking up for Castile as a licensed, law-abiding gun owner?

 

Wow, just wow. How could any court of law possibly acquit that officer? He totally freaked out and overreacted. Granted, I realize police officers face life and death situations. But they're supposed to have the right temperament to handle these things. Instead he f'd up about as bad as possible in that situation. He killed an innocent man driving in a car with his family. :facepalm:

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Nebfanatic    1,080

 

 

Philando Castile was a licensed gun carrier. He got pulled over because his brake lights were out. He calmly alerted the officer he was carrying after giving the officer his license and registration. He was then shot seven times while reaching for his ID and died.

 

Just came across a story by the Minneapolis Star-Tribune syncing up the dashcam footage of the stop with the livestream that Castile's girlfriend started shortly after he was shot. Do not watch this video if you are squeamish or have a problem with shootings. Also some NSFW language.

 

My question is why aren't gun rights groups furious that the officer that shot Castile was acquitted of all charges last week? Why aren't they sticking up for Castile as a licensed, law-abiding gun owner?

Wow, just wow. How could any court of law possibly acquit that officer? He totally freaked out and overreacted. Granted, I realize police officers face life and death situations. But they're supposed to have the right temperament to handle these things. Instead he f'd up about as bad as possible in that situation. He killed an innocent man driving in a car with his family. :facepalm:

stories like these are why there is outrage over lethal force by police in this country. Most of the time it's justified, but when it's not, this is usually still the outcome. The black man who was shot is to blame and the officer who murdered this man is free from any responsibility. It may have been an accident on the officer, he may feel terrible about it for the rest of his life, but that does not change the fact justice needs to go both ways. In situations like this, the officer needs to serve time. It's manslaughter plain and simple. Mr. Castille had absolutely no reason to get his life taken from him on that day.

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zoogs    6,367

Neither the original event nor the acquittal are surprising to a lot of people. That this is the case has been surprising to me, but is more and more less so. It's been an eye-opening several years on this topic.

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Landlord    7,848

Might come as a surprise to some (many), but I find myself somewhat on the fence in regards to this scenario.

 

 

 

 

On one hand, I don't see any reason why Philando had to die that night. I also think that true, transcendent justice hasn't been served because someone should have to pay somehow for what happened to him.

 

On the other, I understand his acquittal, because the law is slanted heavily towards the subjectivity of the officer. How is it ever supposed to be proven that he couldn't see what was being reached for? How are we ever supposed to know if he was fearful for his life, thus giving him the legal right to open fire? How can it be determined in a court that he had legitimate reason to think he could be an armed robbery suspect and not just a profiled black guy with cornrows?

 

There are a lot of elements I can understand from different sides on this, and it's tragic (not nearly as tragic as this man losing his life, mind you) that there's no room for our society to leave our trenches and dive into this better.

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dudeguyy    3,490

I'm pretty understanding of the job police do. I'm not one to blindly blame the police or assume guilt. It just really sucks all the way around. NUance's take seems most in line with mine... the cop seemed panicked immediately by whatever Castile was reaching for. His family says the ID, the cop thought the gun... we'll never really know. I'm inclined to believe Castile because he sounded exceedingly calm, volunteered that he had the gun, and would have no logical reason to pull a gun on a cop for a minor traffic violation. The officer also said he smelled weed on Castile, and so far as we know, we'll never be able to corroborate. But, as LOMS says, the law tends to favor the police. I think police use of force is a systemic problem, even as risky of a job as it is, and requires a systemic solution to reform itself.

 

What ticks me off the most is the silence from the NRA. The ACLU has spoken out plenty about how Castile didn't deserve this and was not served justice. The NRA hasn't said a dang thing because it doesn't fit their agenda. They disgust me so much as an organization.

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Nebfanatic    1,080

^I like alot of what you said dudeguyy. I'd agree, while this particular is on the cop(sorry to anyone who disagrees, but the trigger never ever should have been pulled let alone 7 times) I would argue this problem needs to be solved another way. I've argued it in another thread, but I find it ridiculous our police force kills 1000 people a year when you can count the number of people killed by police in other first world countries on one hand.

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Enhance    3,498

Wow, just wow. How could any court of law possibly acquit that officer? He totally freaked out and overreacted. Granted, I realize police officers face life and death situations. But they're supposed to have the right temperament to handle these things. Instead he f'd up about as bad as possible in that situation. He killed an innocent man driving in a car with his family. :facepalm:

I think one issue is we have far too high of expectations for our police force in regards to the people we sometimes hire as police officers.

 

Don't get me wrong - they all deserve our respect for putting their lives on the line every day, but I personally know several police officers who aren't overly intelligent people. I've also met several police officers who I would have moral and ethical concerns putting around my family. Yet, we demand incredibly high standards the moment they put on that badge. And we should - I would never question or argue against that.

 

It's just a difficult dynamic. I don't think a lot of police officers should be in the positions they're in, I think it's tough that our world is in a place that demands the high standards they're required to meet and, so long as the human element is involved in justice, we're going to see horribly tragic situations like this occur.

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teachercd    3,224

 

Wow, just wow. How could any court of law possibly acquit that officer? He totally freaked out and overreacted. Granted, I realize police officers face life and death situations. But they're supposed to have the right temperament to handle these things. Instead he f'd up about as bad as possible in that situation. He killed an innocent man driving in a car with his family. :facepalm:

I think one issue is we have far too high of expectations for our police force in regards to the people we sometimes hire as police officers.

 

Don't get me wrong - they all deserve our respect for putting their lives on the line every day, but I personally know several police officers who aren't overly intelligent people. I've also met several police officers who I would have moral and ethical concerns putting around my family. Yet, we demand incredibly high standards the moment they put on that badge. And we should - I would never question or argue against that.

 

It's just a difficult dynamic. I don't think a lot of police officers should be in the positions they're in, I think it's tough that our world is in a place that demands the high standards they're required to meet and, so long as the human element is involved in justice, we're going to see horribly tragic situations like this occur.

 

So true!

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Kiyoat Husker    1,508

I believe that is what's known as fear-mongering.

 

I'm actually surprised they didn't mention the rapist/terrorist immigrants, too.

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Enhance    3,498

It's high time people (and groups like the NRA) stop treating guns like they're going extinct.

 

We still have more guns (and simpler gun laws) than most other advanced first world countries. The 2nd Amendment is also never, ever going to go away. The fear associated with arming our citizens and fighting for the truth is bullsh#t.

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BigRedBuster    8,066

Proof of what I have said for a long time.

 

The uproar over the "Democrats taking our guns away" is primarily pushed by gun and ammunition manufacturers who find that the more scared people are about their guns being taken away, the more they will buy.

 

It's a genius marketing ploy.

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Saunders    6,159
10 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

Proof of what I have said for a long time.

 

The uproar over the "Democrats taking our guns away" is primarily pushed by gun and ammunition manufacturers who find that the more scared people are about their guns being taken away, the more they will buy.

 

It's a genius marketing ploy.

I think they absolutely do play into it, but at the same time, there's also a bit of truth to it as well. Policies adopted in NY and California have contributed to the "they're gonna take our guns" hysteria.

 

Also, along those lines, I'm totally not surprised to see the "pro gun" stuff that Trump "promised" on his campaign trail be nothing but a bunch of BS. The only thing he's contributed is falling prices. Lots of dealers (and manufactures) churned stuff out like crazy before the election, only to see the bottom fall out, and prices on stuff like AR's hit rock bottom. I've held off on a couple purchases because I think the low point  for the past 8+ years is gonna be this coming holiday season.

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Nebfanatic    1,080
4 minutes ago, Enhance said:

Two interesting sides to armed citizens in a chaotic situation - one good and one bad.

 

Police say shoppers pulling guns in response to Walmart shooting slowed their investigation

 

And then this from the Texas shooting.

 

 

One thing I thought about with the Sutherland Springs tragedy is they needed someone to do this in a rural Texas town that may not have a quick response time or help for miles. If no one would have shot at this man he could very well still be on the run right now. Then you have a complete 180 with the Colorado situation. There you have professionals in close proximity and it's  best to let them handle these situations except in extenuating circumstances. 

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commando    1,626
13 minutes ago, Enhance said:

Two interesting sides to armed citizens in a chaotic situation - one good and one bad.

 

Police say shoppers pulling guns in response to Walmart shooting slowed their investigation

 

And then this from the Texas shooting.

 

 

in both cases....the first guy having a gun is the problem

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Enhance    3,498

@commando very true, but I think the other variables are still worth discussing and exploring because they're probably always going to be relevant issues.

 

I don't think there's an easy answer or an easy way to parse through them. Both examples show the costs and benefits of an armed citizen in a chaotic situation.

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commando    1,626

fwiw.....i think bump stocks and large capacity magazines should be outlawed.  the only reason for both of those items is to kill a lot of people in a hurry.   and trump should reverse his reversal of obamas executive order that limited gun sales to people who had mental issues.   those items are very basic limitations that would not stop 99% of gun sales but would limit the damage that these nutjobs can do.  of course handguns still kill many more americans that assault rifles can but damn....can't we at least try to limit the carnage a little bit?

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