Nebfanatic Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 (edited) Like i said, nothing more to say....jeeze louise Women need to take control of the situation, its not on the men to, ya know, change their behavior. Smh Edited January 16, 2018 by Nebfanatic 1 Link to comment
Landlord Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 4 minutes ago, Nebfanatic said: Women need to take control of the situation, its not on the men to, ya know, change their behavior. Smh I don't understand how both of these things aren't true. 2 Link to comment
Nebfanatic Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Landlord said: I don't understand how both of these things aren't true. Sure they can be both true, but everyone seems to be focusing on what the women could have or should have done. Its ridiculous really. Same as its always been i suppose. You have said its hard multiple times but its really really not. Enthusiastic consent and communition. I've never found myself in a situation where I did something questionable. Communicating with someone is a basic level of a relationship. Edited January 16, 2018 by Nebfanatic Link to comment
RedDenver Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 1 minute ago, Nebfanatic said: Sure they can be both true, but everyone seems to be focusing on what the women could have or should have done. Its ridiculous really. Same as its always been i suppose. If they're both true, then should we be talking about both of them? How else can we tackle the issue if we're only allowed to talk about one side? I don't understand your angst here. I don't recall a single post that says men shouldn't have to change, and a bunch that say men have to change. Link to comment
BigRedBuster Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 I guess I'm failing to see what people want here. I have not read anywhere that anyone has said Aziz is without fault. I don't believe any poster on this board doesn't believe Aziz was a jerk and at minimum, when they put their clothes back on, he was over bearing and inappropriate. That has been made clear over and over and over again by just about every poster on here including me multiple times. What do people expect to come out of this more? I believe it's been made clear that, at least with the information we have, no sexual assault took place. There wasn't a crime that was committed. We are having an open discussion about it. BUT....for some reason, a few posters just are aghast at the open discussion about the situation. I have three kids. I have taught my daughters to be strong, confident and know that in any situation, they should not feel uncomfortable speaking up and expressing what they want or don't want. I have a son that I am teaching to respect women, their bodies and their feelings. He needs to treat them knowing that this is someone's daughter that loves them very much just like I love my daughters. I will teach ALL my kids that it's important in these situations to do the right thing. I feel this is what we need to be teaching ALL of our kids. I'm failing to see what people expect out of this. Are you expecting more negative to come to Aziz? What???? 1 Link to comment
BigRedBuster Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 5 minutes ago, Nebfanatic said: Sure they can be both true, but everyone seems to be focusing on what the women could have or should have done. NO they aren't. Many people in this thread multiple times have expressed that Aziz was a jerk and could have/should have handled the situation better. Link to comment
Nebfanatic Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Just now, RedDenver said: If they're both true, then should we be talking about both of them? How else can we tackle the issue if we're only allowed to talk about one side? I don't understand your angst here. I don't recall a single post that says men shouldn't have to change, and a bunch that say men have to change. Ehhhh that is not the sentiments in most of the posts at all. Its alot of "well yea but she should have done blah blah blah" and "he was just being an ass but that isn't assualt" and "i think this is just buyers remorse" im seeing alot of dismissing what ansari did wrong and focusing on what 'Grace' should have done. It is a point that needs to be made but the larger conversation at hand is why are men acting this way to begin with. Link to comment
teachercd Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 5 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said: I guess I'm failing to see what people want here. I have not read anywhere that anyone has said Aziz is without fault. I don't believe any poster on this board doesn't believe Aziz was a jerk and at minimum, when they put their clothes back on, he was over bearing and inappropriate. That has been made clear over and over and over again by just about every poster on here including me multiple times. What do people expect to come out of this more? I believe it's been made clear that, at least with the information we have, no sexual assault took place. There wasn't a crime that was committed. We are having an open discussion about it. BUT....for some reason, a few posters just are aghast at the open discussion about the situation. I have three kids. I have taught my daughters to be strong, confident and know that in any situation, they should not feel uncomfortable speaking up and expressing what they want or don't want. I have a son that I am teaching to respect women, their bodies and their feelings. He needs to treat them knowing that this is someone's daughter that loves them very much just like I love my daughters. I will teach ALL my kids that it's important in these situations to do the right thing. I feel this is what we need to be teaching ALL of our kids. I'm failing to see what people expect out of this. Are you expecting more negative to come to Aziz? What???? I think some people want a pound of flesh. Link to comment
BigRedBuster Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 1 minute ago, Nebfanatic said: "he was just being an ass but that isn't assualt" OK...he sexually assaulted her. Is that what you want people to say? Now, what should come of this? Should he be arrested? Should she file charges against him? Should he be fired from his job? What do you want from this? Link to comment
RedDenver Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Just now, Nebfanatic said: Ehhhh that is not the sentiments in most of the posts at all. Its alot of "well yea but she should have done blah blah blah" and "he was just being an ass but that isn't assualt" and "i think this is just buyers remorse" im seeing alot of dismissing what ansari did wrong and focusing on what 'Grace' should have done. It is a point that needs to be made but the larger conversation at hand is why are men acting this way to begin with. First, based on what I've bolded, do you think this was assault? Because that greatly changes the conversation from one of how to learn from this, to do we punish the assaulter, justice system, and punishment. Second, other than saying that Aziz shouldn't have done those things, what else is there to say? I'm honestly asking. Link to comment
zoogs Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Mini-rant: I remember going through this now. Explaining that "Believe All Women" doesn't literally mean accept that no statement uttered by a female human being can ever be false. Pointing out that the phrase is "Believe Women". Going over the nuances of this and how it's not actually dissertation-level physics. All of this because of that garbage Bari Weiss piece back then, and here we are again. /rant I think this identifies the disconnect pretty well: So often it's identifying what the central points are that matters. -- Man, failing to see what people want? Like how many times do we have to use the words "let's change our culture" in this thread and here you still are, "What is it guys, you want to hurt Aziz, is that it, huh, huh"? Gah. -- Also, we're really going to "both sides" this to death, aren't we? Where there is imbalance, balance is not the right answer. Link to comment
Guy Chamberlin Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 I think the bigger question is how much of this needs to be decided privately by the parties involved, and how much of it needs to be an internet s#!tshow of people in love with their own voices. 1 Link to comment
Landlord Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 10 minutes ago, Nebfanatic said: Sure they can be both true, but everyone seems to be focusing on what the women could have or should have done. Its ridiculous really. Same as its always been i suppose. Is that really what everyone is focusing on? 23 hours ago, Nebfanatic said: Not okay, and what Aziz did is the type of behavior we are trying to eliminate as it is the type of thing that can lead to more entitlement and rape culture. 23 hours ago, zoogs said: The extent of his disregard for her interest in the activity over his own...if that's common, it absolutely should not be. What should be coming out of all this is a lot of looking at what either we have done or think is OK and go, gosh, maybe it wasn't. 22 hours ago, zoogs said: I will go out on a limb and venture that it's on Aziz that she went home crying in an Uber and not on her. But what was he supposed to do? Stop. It ain't rocket science. 21 hours ago, BigRedBuster said: Hey...if she says no and puts her clothes back on....then the answer is no. I agree with that. 21 hours ago, zoogs said: First, I think the message here is "this behavior is wrong, please be able to see it as wrong and don't do it", not whether or not Aziz committed a crime. 19 hours ago, zoogs said: To shift the focus again to what I feel is a more appropriate place, the question really ought to be why didn't he stop? 19 hours ago, BigRedBuster said: I have no problem asking this question and it's very appropriate. That's what makes him creepy, weird and a turnoff. 19 hours ago, Nebfanatic said: I think another main point we are straying away from is the problem of expecting sex with little to no communication. This leads to a wide range of problematic incidents, from stories like this to much worse.... Communication is key! 18 hours ago, Landlord said: What he's guilty of is being an inconsiderate creep in the middle of a power dynamic... It is on him, and not her, given that the reported account is entirely accurate, that this girl felt unsafe and went home crying. 17 hours ago, Nebfanatic said: We are simply pointing out inappropriate behavior by a 34 year old man. He should be called out on such behavior and we all as a society should learn this isn't acceptable. 16 hours ago, Nebfanatic said: I really think the question of is it or is it not sexual assualt is the wromg question. My question is, is his behavior acceptable? To me its not, and not the behavior we want men thinking is ok. Most men think its A ok and that is a problem imo. 15 hours ago, Landlord said: He went too far, it was manipulative and I hope he learns how to be more cognizant and treat women better. 13 hours ago, Landlord said: However, I would add that if we are going to start changing this narrative, it's got to be multi-faceted. We need to be creating a world where women feel comfortable and enabled to clearly and confidently say, "no", while we also need to teach men that a lack of "no" and ambiguous non-communication is not consent. 11 hours ago, Landlord said: We do a piss poor job teaching about consent, and we do an even worse job modeling it and living it out. We also haven't created a culture that easily allows for women to confidently exercise their own sexual agency. It is, as Elizabeth puts it, something very worth writing about. Sexism isn't the only culprit of this ugly cocktail of bad reflections of society. What else plays a part? Certainly porn has something to do with it. Hookup culture as well? The degradation of clear communication mediums? 4 hours ago, NM11046 said: I don't disagree that if he made her uncomfortable that was wrong. ... Edit: and net net I agree with the fact that we need to have ongoing conversations about consent, and power with BOTH men and women. To you parents out there - how do you talk to your children? 1 hour ago, NM11046 said: I think this situation should increase awareness for both sexes. 1 hour ago, RedDenver said: The man could and should have been more attentive to whether the woman really wanted what was happening. And the woman could and should have been more clear/direct in her messaging to him. I'm not even saying that they're equal in blame in this particular situation, but rather that we need to see how this happened and think about how we can proceed so it's less likely to happen again. 1 hour ago, BigRedBuster said: All men should be evaluating (and constantly should be) how they treat women, especially in a sexual type situation. I also don't have a problem with women doing the same thing and that's what I took from what these two female feminists are doing. I didn't read anything in this that says Aziz was somehow a perfect gentleman and is without fault. 48 minutes ago, RedDenver said: I agree that in this case Aziz was being relentless and should have slowed things down. Seems to me you are imagining that, and we are all collectively focusing on many different things. 1 Link to comment
Nebfanatic Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Just now, BigRedBuster said: OK...he sexually assaulted her. Is that what you want people to say? Now, what should come of this? Should he be arrested? Should she file charges against him? Should he be fired from his job? What do you want from this? Nope its not but people act like because its not assualt its not that bad. This behavior leads to assualt! Thats the issue! This is the same behavior men all over exhibit daily! But it is wrong and needs to stop. Stop placing the blame on women! The man shouldn't be acting in this manner after multiple attempts from the women to slow it down! This behavior is the type of behavior that leads to assualt, rape and murder even. Imagine if this wasn't Aziz Ansari. Someone with less regard for women could have easily gotten angry with the woman in that situation and done alot worse. Yet the woman is just supposed to say no and leave. What if that upset him and he doesnt let me? These things cross peoples mind. Lets stop placing the responsibility on the women to handle these situations better and instead teach men and people in general not to act in a predatory manner sexually. Link to comment
Nebfanatic Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, Landlord said: Is that really what everyone is focusing on? Seems to me you are imagining that, and we are all collectively focusing on many different things. Ha! Half of those posts are from myself or @zoogs and you convieniently left out much of other posts. But whatever you want to believe. I'm tired of going back and forth about it. Link to comment
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