So why is it so hard to believe God is.....

[JJ Husker]

JJ, at no time have I ever said your belief was wrong (or if I used those words, I conveyed poorly what I was saying). At no time have I ever told anyone, including my own wife who remains Christian, that they should stop being Christian. I will not do that, because frankly I don't see how it's harming you - in fact, I think it helps a great many people, including my wife. So if it helps you and doesn't harm others, by all means remain Christian (or whatever faith you adhere to, anyone else reading).

 

The goal of these talks, for me, is not to convert anyone away from Christianity. It's simply to express what I believe. If I make sense, and you think differently than you do as a result of our talks, then I would only be happy about that if who you became made you a happier person than who you are. I would be very upset to find that changing your belief as a result of something I said caused you grief (or anyone else).

Thank you for that. I think often times in this type of discussion assumptions from two different points of view can do just what we were told and make an ass/u/me. Likewise, my goal is not necessarily to convert anyone to Christianity although I would not be opposed to that and I deeply believe a person would find more fulfillment in their life with such a belief because I do. I guess it is only logical for both of us to feel we've got the better way figured out. BTW, I am impressed with your knowledge base and the rapid retrieval of bible passages. I guess what I find so frustrating and somewhat disturbing is how two apparently logical and rational people, who really share about the same confidence in science and history can come to such a different conclusion about the existence of God. I probably have an unhealthy desire to search for that straw that breaks the back of my faith but I still haven't seen the deal breaker. I've looked and had numerous people on message boards try but I'm not there and really beginning to think I will never get there. It's not that I am unhappy and desire to get there but rather I am really curious how some smart people arrive where you are. I suppose the fact that others have been satisfied with knowledge that has not done the trick for me can lead to getting snippy and unnecessarily argumentative and vice versa. But, it also makes me proud that my faith is that unflappable and that can probably be misconstrued on a message board as some undesirable traits.

[strigori]

So why is it so hard to believe God is.....capable of good and evil?

 

How do you define God, and how do you define evil?

 

If by definition the actions of god (or spirit) define what is good, then the answer is no.

If Christians really believe that there is a divine plan and God has everything mapped out from the moment of creation, then there is no good and no evil. As that would require a choice, and there can be no choice if everything that will ever happen is already known.

[Blackshirts007]

Always a great cause for joy when knapp consistently knows his way around scripture, theology and the gospel better than most Christians on here

He can know every passage in it, but its a shame he's so narrow minded to get consumed by the devil. Look at it this way, each and every day new technology is produced. Does technolgy get produced on an evolutionary basis because we have the need of new things? No, We attribute this technology to a creater, because obviously someone designed the technology. But for some reason people believe that a blind chance did a better job creating the unbelievable sophisticated human being. If evolution is a silly way to describe anything produced, than it is even sillier to say that evolution created a human being.

 

What knapp feels like is because bad things happen in this world, there is no God. But he forgets that God created every human for a purpose and gave everyone free will. Everyone is here to learn a lesson, and some use there free will in a negative way, some positive. But God can use suffering to turn into good. God is using the world and its failures for his glory and those who listen to him. Knapp thinks that just because there is sin that God is unloving. That is foolish. "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23. Everything was perfect until sin corrupted the human race. And the devil turned against The Lord.

 

Knapp wants this perfect world, where there are no problems and everything is sugar coated. He wants everything handed to him and not have to deal with anything. Well that's not how it works or is stated in the bible. There is good in everything, you just have to find it. Look around you, at the diversity of animals, big and small, insects, the enviroment and terrain. If you cannot see any evidence of loving provision, that just proves how much you need God to open your eyes and touch your heart.

 

There is love everywhere and I'm sure you don't fully understand why God allows there to be sin because I'm guessing you don't have kids? Your argument would be no different than saying why would a loving father punish there child? Why wouldn't a loving father let there child do anything they wanted to, let them do whatever they want?? You know why, because that's not a loving father, that's a father who doesn't care. A loving father wants to watch there children grow up, teach them right from wrong, to be a good person, treat others with respect. And guess what, we are children of God! And God doesn't act like everything is perfect, he doesn't make everything easy, because that wouldn't teach us. HE IS A LOVING FATHER!!!!!

 

Not believing in God because of no proof is just silly. There is proof everywhere, you just have to find it. God is everywhere. Do humans have souls knapp? Don't answer that, obviously we don't have souls because there is no proof. We are essentialy robots in knapps mind and have no purpose on the earth.

 

I'm going to pray for you tonight knapp.

[knapplc]

Thank you for that. I think often times in this type of discussion assumptions from two different points of view can do just what we were told and make an ass/u/me. Likewise, my goal is not necessarily to convert anyone to Christianity although I would not be opposed to that and I deeply believe a person would find more fulfillment in their life with such a belief because I do. I guess it is only logical for both of us to feel we've got the better way figured out. BTW, I am impressed with your knowledge base and the rapid retrieval of bible passages. I guess what I find so frustrating and somewhat disturbing is how two apparently logical and rational people, who really share about the same confidence in science and history can come to such a different conclusion about the existence of God. I probably have an unhealthy desire to search for that straw that breaks the back of my faith but I still haven't seen the deal breaker. I've looked and had numerous people on message boards try but I'm not there and really beginning to think I will never get there. It's not that I am unhappy and desire to get there but rather I am really curious how some smart people arrive where you are. I suppose the fact that others have been satisfied with knowledge that has not done the trick for me can lead to getting snippy and unnecessarily argumentative and vice versa. But, it also makes me proud that my faith is that unflappable and that can probably be misconstrued on a message board as some undesirable traits.

 

I've had "the God discussion" on message boards since 1997, back in the old AOL chatroom days when the Internet was still young. Nobody convinced me of anything, no matter how persuasively they argued, and no matter how convincing their facts.

 

It's a personal thing, a journey everyone takes, and there are many paths. Who's to say that my path is right for you? I'm not so arrogant as to think it is.

[strigori]

JJ, at no time have I ever said your belief was wrong (or if I used those words, I conveyed poorly what I was saying). At no time have I ever told anyone, including my own wife who remains Christian, that they should stop being Christian. I will not do that, because frankly I don't see how it's harming you - in fact, I think it helps a great many people, including my wife. So if it helps you and doesn't harm others, by all means remain Christian (or whatever faith you adhere to, anyone else reading).

 

The goal of these talks, for me, is not to convert anyone away from Christianity. It's simply to express what I believe. If I make sense, and you think differently than you do as a result of our talks, then I would only be happy about that if who you became made you a happier person than who you are. I would be very upset to find that changing your belief as a result of something I said caused you grief (or anyone else).

Thank you for that. I think often times in this type of discussion assumptions from two different points of view can do just what we were told and make an ass/u/me. Likewise, my goal is not necessarily to convert anyone to Christianity although I would not be opposed to that and I deeply believe a person would find more fulfillment in their life with such a belief because I do. I guess it is only logical for both of us to feel we've got the better way figured out. BTW, I am impressed with your knowledge base and the rapid retrieval of bible passages. I guess what I find so frustrating and somewhat disturbing is how two apparently logical and rational people, who really share about the same confidence in science and history can come to such a different conclusion about the existence of God. I probably have an unhealthy desire to search for that straw that breaks the back of my faith but I still haven't seen the deal breaker. I've looked and had numerous people on message boards try but I'm not there and really beginning to think I will never get there. It's not that I am unhappy and desire to get there but rather I am really curious how some smart people arrive where you are. I suppose the fact that others have been satisfied with knowledge that has not done the trick for me can lead to getting snippy and unnecessarily argumentative and vice versa. But, it also makes me proud that my faith is that unflappable and that can probably be misconstrued on a message board as some undesirable traits.

A message board is ultimately not the best venue for the deep introspective conversation and thought that goes into the self dissection of one's own faith. I had a religious upbringing, and attended a great deal of Sunday school, Confirmation classes and youth group stuff. Other situations led me to a very deep analyzation of my own thoughts and beliefs. I came to not like or agree with much of what I had been taught, or the answers that were offered to me by the faithful. Its not something someone else can truly convince you of, its something that must come as a self realization. You can use information and opinions of others to think about, but until someone reaches a point where they are honestly willing to ask themselves questions about what is often at the core of their self view, nothing can really happen. And I don't think many people are willing to open themselves up to being that vulnerable to letting the core of their own reality be changed. Its was not an especially pleasant process.

[ZRod]

Always a great cause for joy when knapp consistently knows his way around scripture, theology and the gospel better than most Christians on here

He can know every passage in it, but its a shame he's so narrow minded to get consumed by the devil. Look at it this way, each and every day new technology is produced. Does technolgy get produced on an evolutionary basis because we have the need of new things? No, We attribute this technology to a creater, because obviously someone designed the technology. But for some reason people believe that a blind chance did a better job creating the unbelievable sophisticated human being. If evolution is a silly way to describe anything produced, than it is even sillier to say that evolution created a human being.

Is that you're belief because if so, son you need to take a biology course or look at the world around you. We're no more sophisticated than any other animal out there and in fact we share quite a bit of our genetic code with some of them. If you do believe in a creator Isn't it a much more marvelous thing to believe that way came all the way from a single celled organism to what we are now?

[MLB 51]

I shall smite you all.

[Blackshirts007]

Always a great cause for joy when knapp consistently knows his way around scripture, theology and the gospel better than most Christians on here

He can know every passage in it, but its a shame he's so narrow minded to get consumed by the devil. Look at it this way, each and every day new technology is produced. Does technolgy get produced on an evolutionary basis because we have the need of new things? No, We attribute this technology to a creater, because obviously someone designed the technology. But for some reason people believe that a blind chance did a better job creating the unbelievable sophisticated human being. If evolution is a silly way to describe anything produced, than it is even sillier to say that evolution created a human being.

Is that you're belief because if so, son you need to take a biology course or look at the world around you. We're no more sophisticated than any other animal out there and in fact we share quite a bit of our genetic code with some of them. If you do believe in a creator Isn't it a much more marvelous thing to believe that way came all the way from a single celled organism to what we are now?

Evolution can happen, but it couldn't happen unless the conditions were perfect and allowed us to evolve. We could have evolved from nothing, but not without God creating an atmosphere and universe that would allow is to be created.

[knapplc]

Always a great cause for joy when knapp consistently knows his way around scripture, theology and the gospel better than most Christians on here

1) He can know every passage in it, but its a shame he's so narrow minded to get consumed by the devil. Look at it this way, each and every day new technology is produced. Does technolgy get produced on an evolutionary basis because we have the need of new things? No, We attribute this technology to a creater, because obviously someone designed the technology. But for some reason people believe that a blind chance did a better job creating the unbelievable sophisticated human being. If evolution is a silly way to describe anything produced, than it is even sillier to say that evolution created a human being.

 

2) What knapp feels like is because bad things happen in this world, there is no God. But he forgets that God created every human for a purpose and gave everyone free will. Everyone is here to learn a lesson, and some use there free will in a negative way, some positive. But God can use suffering to turn into good. God is using the world and its failures for his glory and those who listen to him. 3) Knapp thinks that just because there is sin that God is unloving. That is foolish. "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23. Everything was perfect until sin corrupted the human race. And the devil turned against The Lord.

 

4) Knapp wants this perfect world, where there are no problems and everything is sugar coated. He wants everything handed to him and not have to deal with anything. Well that's not how it works or is stated in the bible. There is good in everything, you just have to find it. Look around you, at the diversity of animals, big and small, insects, the enviroment and terrain. If you cannot see any evidence of loving provision, that just proves how much you need God to open your eyes and touch your heart.

 

5) There is love everywhere and I'm sure you don't fully understand why God allows there to be sin because I'm guessing you don't have kids? Your argument would be no different than saying why would a loving father punish there child? Why wouldn't a loving father let there child do anything they wanted to, let them do whatever they want?? You know why, because that's not a loving father, that's a father who doesn't care. A loving father wants to watch there children grow up, teach them right from wrong, to be a good person, treat others with respect. And guess what, we are children of God! And God doesn't act like everything is perfect, he doesn't make everything easy, because that wouldn't teach us. HE IS A LOVING FATHER!!!!!

 

6) Not believing in God because of no proof is just silly. There is proof everywhere, you just have to find it. God is everywhere. Do humans have souls knapp? Don't answer that, obviously we don't have souls because there is no proof. 7) We are essentialy robots in knapps mind and have no purpose on the earth.

 

8) I'm going to pray for you tonight knapp.

 

1) Who has the more narrow mind, the person who has studied one religion and disregarded the rest and all scientific evidence, or someone who has studied one religion in great depth, several others in detail, as well as the scientific evidence explaining our origins? I hope you didn't call me narrow-minded with a straight face. I would put the breadth of my knowledge of Christianity and my lengthy service to the church up as proof to the contrary.

 

2) I don't feel, at all, that God doesn't exist because of bad things. I believe God doesn't exist as defined by the Bible because no loving father would put their children what God has put us through. Anyone who thinks it is love to banish your children to an existence where they have a 50% chance (greater if you want to add in all the other religions and scientific record, but we'll call all that even) of failing to spend eternity in heaven with him when he has the power to place me there right now, this instant, please think again. That is not love. That is the opposite of love.

 

3) Same answer as above, but to the point of "all have sinned," we have only sinned because God allowed us to sin. Who put the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden? It wasn't Adam. All God had to do was never put that tree there and Adam and Eve remain sinless, God's children walk in glory with Him daily, but instead we're given a snake. And what does Jesus tell us about that?

 

---

Matthew, Chapter 7

Ask, Seek, Knock

 

⁷ “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. ⁸ For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

⁹ “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? ¹⁰ Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? ¹¹ If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! ¹² So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

 

---

In what way is it possible that God the loving Father gave us a snake, when God the Son himself used it as an illustration of exactly what a loving father does not do? Of all the unintended parallels in the Bible, that has to be the most poignant.

 

4) This doesn't in any way represent my stance on anything. It's the worst form of straw man. Not only do I not believe this, nor have I ever professed this, but I have shown that human existence is the exact opposite - in the absence of a Creator God, we're here to struggle and claw for survival on our own. That's a harsh reality, one that many Christians I know turn away from, leading them to the shelter of a Supreme Being, a comforting thought that someone out there is looking over them. I've turned away from that notion, and face the world on my own. That's not sugar-coating anything, that's facing life as it is. This statement couldn't be further from the truth.

 

5) As the subject of this straw man I'm guessing this sentence is also directed at me. I am a father, and as I've said before, I should not be a better father than the God I worship. I am, sadly, and that led to the final straw in my belief. I own a shed, out by the field, that is infested with mice. I need to clean it. I own a house, a decent place that's reasonably clean and safe. As a father, I don't put the children I love in that shed, give them a book and wish them luck, never to interact with them again. They live in my house, with me, and I protect them and show them love every single day. The Christian God has never hugged me, never told me I'm his loved son, never comforted me in times of trouble. I've supported myself, or the people I love have, and no discernible outside deity has ever done this for me. And that's not for lack of prayer, faith or devotion on my part. I gave myself wholeheartedly to the church for 40 years. There is a tremendous difference between lovingly correcting your children and abandoning them in the wasteland. I do the former, the God of the Bible has done the latter.

 

6) You do a lot of speaking for me here, but your conclusions are very self-serving. Not believing in the Loch Ness Monster because there is no proof is not silly. Not believing in the Yeti because there is no proof is not silly. Not believing in Zeus because of no proof is not silly. Not believing in Quetzalcoatl because of no proof is not silly. Not believing in Anubis because of no proof is not silly. But not believing in the God of the Bible because of no proof - THAT is silly. I could just as easily tell you that Zeus is everywhere, you just have to find proof of him, and you will without hesitation dismiss that as silly. I do the same thing, only I say this of all the ancient gods, not just 99.9% of them like you.

 

7) Straw man. Not even going to bother with that one.

 

8) As odd as you may think it is to read this, I thank you for this. While I don't share your belief, I don't spurn it, nor do I think your prayers on my behalf, whether I believe in their effectiveness or not, are a minor thing. I think it's good that you would do this. I hope you have a good evening.

[MLB 51]

Always a great cause for joy when knapp consistently knows his way around scripture, theology and the gospel better than most Christians on here

He can know every passage in it, but its a shame he's so narrow minded to get consumed by the devil. Look at it this way, each and every day new technology is produced. Does technolgy get produced on an evolutionary basis because we have the need of new things? No, We attribute this technology to a creater, because obviously someone designed the technology. But for some reason people believe that a blind chance did a better job creating the unbelievable sophisticated human being. If evolution is a silly way to describe anything produced, than it is even sillier to say that evolution created a human being.

Is that you're belief because if so, son you need to take a biology course or look at the world around you. We're no more sophisticated than any other animal out there and in fact we share quite a bit of our genetic code with some of them. If you do believe in a creator Isn't it a much more marvelous thing to believe that way came all the way from a single celled organism to what we are now?

Evolution can happen, but it couldn't happen unless the conditions were perfect and allowed us to evolve. We could have evolved from nothing, but not without God creating an atmosphere and universe that would allow is to be created.

Pretty sure that can be explained away by science.

[Landlord]

JJ, at no time have I ever said your belief was wrong (or if I used those words, I conveyed poorly what I was saying). At no time have I ever told anyone, including my own wife who remains Christian, that they should stop being Christian. I will not do that, because frankly I don't see how it's harming you - in fact, I think it helps a great many people, including my wife.

 

 

"But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied."

[knapplc]

JJ, at no time have I ever said your belief was wrong (or if I used those words, I conveyed poorly what I was saying). At no time have I ever told anyone, including my own wife who remains Christian, that they should stop being Christian. I will not do that, because frankly I don't see how it's harming you - in fact, I think it helps a great many people, including my wife.

 

 

"But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied."

 

First Corinthians, Chapter 15

 

The error in that passage is that, if there is no God, there is no sin. Sin is a concept of religion. Without religion, sin is not sin. Even were we to define the ills Man does as "sin," if there were no God, then sin would separate us from... nothing.

 

That passage presupposes the existence of God. It has no truth without God.

 

 

EDIT - further, let's look at what Christianity teaches you. Christ taught you to love your neighbor as yourself. He taught you to feed the hungry, help the poor, heal the sick. He taught you that to give of yourself to your fellow man is a great thing - not for earning your way into heaven, but as an act in and of itself.

 

So even if Christ was not God, even if God is not real, Christ's teachings still have merit. Living a Christian life, even as an Atheist, is a fine thing. You may have some trouble with the law if you go around making whips from cords and driving out the money-changers, but everyone gets in trouble from time to time anyway, right?

[ZRod]

Always a great cause for joy when knapp consistently knows his way around scripture, theology and the gospel better than most Christians on here

He can know every passage in it, but its a shame he's so narrow minded to get consumed by the devil. Look at it this way, each and every day new technology is produced. Does technolgy get produced on an evolutionary basis because we have the need of new things? No, We attribute this technology to a creater, because obviously someone designed the technology. But for some reason people believe that a blind chance did a better job creating the unbelievable sophisticated human being. If evolution is a silly way to describe anything produced, than it is even sillier to say that evolution created a human being.

Is that you're belief because if so, son you need to take a biology course or look at the world around you. We're no more sophisticated than any other animal out there and in fact we share quite a bit of our genetic code with some of them. If you do believe in a creator Isn't it a much more marvelous thing to believe that way came all the way from a single celled organism to what we are now?

Evolution can happen, but it couldn't happen unless the conditions were perfect and allowed us to evolve. We could have evolved from nothing, but not without God creating an atmosphere and universe that would allow is to be created.

The point of evolution is that the conditions never were perfect, hence the organsim evloved to adapt to it's environement.

[sd'sker]

Always a great cause for joy when knapp consistently knows his way around scripture, theology and the gospel better than most Christians on here

He can know every passage in it, but its a shame he's so narrow minded to get consumed by the devil. Look at it this way, each and every day new technology is produced. Does technolgy get produced on an evolutionary basis because we have the need of new things? No, We attribute this technology to a creater, because obviously someone designed the technology. But for some reason people believe that a blind chance did a better job creating the unbelievable sophisticated human being. If evolution is a silly way to describe anything produced, than it is even sillier to say that evolution created a human being.

Is that you're belief because if so, son you need to take a biology course or look at the world around you. We're no more sophisticated than any other animal out there and in fact we share quite a bit of our genetic code with some of them. If you do believe in a creator Isn't it a much more marvelous thing to believe that way came all the way from a single celled organism to what we are now?

Evolution can happen, but it couldn't happen unless the conditions were perfect and allowed us to evolve. We could have evolved from nothing, but not without God creating an atmosphere and universe that would allow is to be created.

The point of evolution is that the conditions never were perfect, hence the organsim evloved to adapt to it's environement.

and in the big picture, they will not be perfect much longer.

[walksalone]

Regardless of science, or jesus, getting riled up over a book with no discernible author, having no conclusive evidence of how the universe was created, if jesus was some slackester pot smoking hippie, or Ronald Reagan was the devil, is completely batsh*t, branch davidian crazy...