Homosexuality, Culture, and Theology

[walksalone]

 

What I don't get, and I'm sure I could be accused of it as well, why do people get so butthurt over issues that have no direct affect upon their daily lives?

This is a question I asked in another thread.

If you perceive this to be a sin, then how does their sin affect you. It doesn't, it's their sin. If you believe in sin that is.

 

 

I occasionally get asked this while I was in the army, "do you think gays should be in the military"...

 

I don't care if you're gay or not. If, by doing your job you keep yourself and me from getting killed, then you're alright by me.

[walksalone]

Landlord, you never said anything about homosexuality being bad, necessarily, but you did say that they make bad decisions. As if gay people choose to be gay. That has got to be one of the most idiotic statements anyone could possibly make about this issue. Why in God's green earth would someone choose to be gay? That would be like choosing to be black during most of America's history. And why is having gay sex a bad decision? Other than the fact that the Bible prohibits it, do you actually have a good reason for this belief? It's obvious that you don't strictly adhere to everything in the Bible, so I think it's a little hypocritical for you to base your opinions of homosexuality off of what the Bible says.

 

For the record, I had the chance to be black, went the Indian route instead...

 

Oh, and feather, not dot...

[Junior]

I actually have the book Craig references and have read it and it provides sources, but it's boxed up somewhere getting ready to move. I was going to pull it out but I think it's just better for me to bow out of the conversation. The people that know me best know that I'm reasonable and know my heart in loving and accepting and fighting for all wronged people. If I haven't communicated that well that's on me, but on the other hand if a good number of you aren't able to comprehend that you can be genuinely and passionately loving and supportive of people while still having a conviction that they are doing harm to themselves, then I'm not going to convince you.

 

Regardless of different conclusions I'm glad to see that a lot of people seem to be passionate about fighting for the oppressed, because I think that's the real necessity more than anything else.

 

 

Hey, if you have references for all of that nonsense, I think you are obligated to share at this point. To say "oh yea, I have references but I won't bother sharing because you all got mad at me for my absurdly bigoted post" is garbage. I believe you got that information from someone and didn't make it up, but I'd like to see where that someone got it from in the first place.

[BigRedBuster]

I honestly don't care if someone is gay. I have stated on here before my relationships with various gay men and women. I have helped a couple of them when they were having problems with their families not accepting them. I support them being able to get married because simply, it is stupid that anyone would think there should be a law against it. I have worked in health care where gay partners were not allowed in the ICU room with their life long partner and that is just wrong and I will always speak up and support their rights.

 

What I find interesting and humorous is the word "normal" being thrown around about gay men and women. The gay people I know would NEVER call themselves "normal". It should be accepted as just something different about an individual. It is not "normal" for a man to want to have sex with another man and be totally turned off by a woman's body. It is not "normal" for a woman to want to have sex with another woman and be totally turned off by a man's body.

 

I have had many conversations with various gay people about this and I don't ever remember any of them thinking they are "normal".

[tschu]

The goal is to get to the point where there is no such thing as "normal"

[sd'sker]

why is the focus always on homosexual men? loms even said "homosexual sex" as if it was synonymous with anal sex. this strikes me as odd and is seems as if a lot of people who take issue with homosexuality are just threatened or uncomfortable with their own sexuality.

[tschu]

Because at the very root of it all, homophobes and people who judge gays for whatever reason are grossed out by the physical act and can't come to grips with it, so they invent reasons for thinking that it is bad. And people are more grossed out by the male version.

[BigRedBuster]

The goal is to get to the point where there is no such thing as "normal"

 

Really? That's kind of odd.

[Junior]

why is the focus always on homosexual men? loms even said "homosexual sex" as if it was synonymous with anal sex. this strikes me as odd and is seems as if a lot of people who take issue with homosexuality are just threatened or uncomfortable with their own sexuality.

 

Because two girls getting it on is hot. And two guys getting it on is icky. At least, that's my understanding of it.

[JJ Husker]

If anyone wants a good laugh, have a quick looksee in the Out of Context Quotes thread. Some of the people throwing a sh!t-fit in this thread are some of the same ones poking the most fun at gay related comments. I don't think there is anything wrong with recognizing the humor inherent with some of these comments but I've gotta wonder how the same people can get so dang butthurt one moment and then turnaround and poke fun at aspects of being gay.

[tschu]

Well, I have some time, and I hate that I feel the need to have to do this - the easiest way to make yourself look crazy is to respond to the crazy person, but here goes.

 

What exactly is the problem with it? If someone has reason to believe that homosexual activity is harmful, seems pretty fair to hold a position that there's nothing wrong with a person being oriented towards something if they don't act out on it. I get that you don't think there's harm in it so you don't make the same comparisons, but I do (will address this further down), and that in mind I can compare it to other more easily demonstrable examples:

 

There's nothing wrong with being prone to alcoholism, but staying sober-minded is healthy and good.

There's nothing wrong with being prone to violence, but control your anger and don't curb stomp people.

There's nothing wrong with being unhappy in your marriage, but don't be unfaithful and an adulterer.

 

You are actually comparing the act of homosexual sex - an act of love between two people, done in private, involving or affecting NOBODY ELSE, with alcohol abuse, felony violence, and adultery. Do you really not see the difference? Tell me the light bulb in your head is flickering just a little bit, at least.

 

Prove it man. Give me something worthwhile to show me how I am objectively wrong that isn't based on the inconsistent and ever changing cultural agenda of the present time. If it's this obvious then just prove it to me - especially when my side of the moral issue leads me to love gay people, to have close and treasured relationships with them, and to fight for their liberties and rights.

 

You can't have it both ways. You can't judge and believe and actively spread an agenda that is totally against a certain subset of people, while hiding behind the veil of love and relationships and rights. You're only doing so out of the belief that you can change them, not out of love and acceptance for who they are. And even if this agenda is truly an act of love by you, that's not the point. Spreading this viewpoint involves others who don't share the same altruistic values as you. Keeping these homophobic ideas alive only results in discrimination being kept alive. I don't care if YOU don't discriminate - if so, congratulations, you don't get a medal for that. The point is that keeping your viewpoints alive keeps discrimination alive.

 

Sorry for the confusion, but I never implied or said that gay people choose to be gay. That wasn't the choice I was referring to (the choice being homosexual acts). It's pretty well established that sexual orientation is almost entirely determined by genetics and social conditioning.

 

As far as homosexual acts being a bad decision, yeah, I have a number of reasons to think this is the case outside of just "The Bible says so":

 

1. Drastic promiscuity and homosexual behavior go hand in hand. 75% of homosexual men have more than 100 sexual partners in their lifetime, half being strangers, and something like 7-8% of all homosexual people have relationships lasting longer than three years. As a Christian this is disturbing from the spiritual perspective when taking into account the ideas of purity and covenants, but even as a practical person you have to acknowledge the significantly greater propensity for diseases, lack of worthwhile relationships and other things. Promiscuity among homosexual men isn't a stereotype, or even really a 'majority' experience - it is very close to the entirety of experience.

 

2. With that comes seriously ramped up drug usage. I'll have to find the study but it showed that 47% of homosexual men have a history of alcohol abuse and 51% have a history of of drug abuse, with a direct correlation between number of partners and amount of drugs consumed.

 

3. There's also overwhelming evidence that some mental disorders occur with a lot more frequency in homosexual people, with attempted suicide rates six times more than heterosexual counterparts and much higher propensity towards serious depression. Some of that, no doubt, has to do with facing the societal pressure that heterosexual people don't have to suffer through, but all of it? Eh, I'm skeptical.

 

4. Homosexual sex is just straight up devastating to your body. It results in stuff like prostate damage, ulcers and ruptures, anal warts, chronic diarrhea and incontinence.

 

5. Finally, the diseases man. Not including AIDS, 75% of guys carry some kind of STD. Still excluding those with AIDS, the life expectancy of a homosexual man is 45 years old. Compared to 70 for men overall.

 

 

 

This is the meat and potatoes of the crazy, and it proves several things

 

A) You haven't bothered to think critically about this

B) You haven't bothered to do any fact-checking

C) You have a huge case of confirmation bias syndrome.

 

Let's review your so-called "facts"

 

1) False. Very false. The best that I was able to trace the source of your ridiculous statement was - you guessed it, not joking - a Christian anti-gay propoganda website. COLOR ME SHOCKED. Here is a graph of sexual activity comparing homosexuals and heterosexuals.

 

 

And even if there was some big difference, it would be explainable by how unacceptable an open, long-term monogamous homosexual relationship has been over the years. But there's no difference.

 

2) Good luck citing that study, none of the rates that I've seen are anywhere near that high. So another case of posting false information for your agenda. Regardless, it is true that homosexuals have higher rates of alcohol and drug use. However, most often this is attributed to the general climate of cultural unacceptance that you are helping to breed. Gays can't just meet someone in the grocery store or at work or whatever - they basically have one socially safe atmosphere for meeting people, and that's the bar.

 

With that comes our first major argumentative fallacy - Landlord you're talking drug use among homosexuals. This has nothing to do with homosexual sex and everything to do with just BEING homosexual and using drugs. Which goes against what you said earlier that you only are against homosexual sex. Maybe if gay dudes were known to smoke crack everytime they got it on and there was data to prove it, you'd have a point. Lol.

 

3. You're literally in denial about the suffering that your viewpoint is causing people. You see it, but you're turning the other way.

 

4. LOL. This comes down to you being grossed out. It really does.

 

5. A Christian activist "researcher" wrote a completely falsified paper in 1994 that has been cited by anti-gay people ever since. His research method was horrifically flawed, and parts have been shown to be flat out false, and if you read the paper you'd know this. They do have a shorter life expectancy, this is true. A lot of that data is still being affected by the '80s, which were a different time...AIDS spread rampantly through the gay population because we didn't understand the virus yet. But the difference is fairly small now, about 8-10 years.

 

Besides, anti-gay agenda is part of that problem as well. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/18/gay-life-expectancy-study_n_4810496.html

 

(part 1/2)

[tschu]

(part 2/2)

Moving on, what don't I adhere to in the Bible? Not sure what you're referencing, but in addition to the objective reasons why I come to the conclusion that homosexual acts are bad news, there is still the matter of my faith. You guys seem to be throwing around this strawman reasoning where I and others just proclaim "THE BIBLE SAYS SO" as if it's an isolated and arbitrary statement that doesn't have any meaning. When, IF, I say I believe something because the Bible says so, it's because I believe the Bible to be God's word, which is true and right and just do to believing that God is omniscient and loving and just and merciful.

 

Nobody cares what you believe. Literally, nobody gives a sh#t. Everyone else just wants to live their lives how they want.

 

I would think that people molesting children, committing suicide, overdosing on hard drugs, or hundreds of other examples would be better evidence for your case, you know? But regardless, the answer to that is quite simple and centered around the idea of the corruption of sin making us not what we ought to be.

 

You're now equating these things with being gay and placing the blame not on the drugs or the suicide or even on culture for being so oppressive, but on the gays themselves just for BEING gay. (There's that BEING vs. ACTING hypocrisy again). Would you like to share with the class your theory on why suicide and drug rates are so high among homosexuals?

 

Everyone has morals. And I personally don't believe what you have described. I think people should be allowed (different than believing they should in general, or that it's a good idea) to do whatever they want so long as it doesn't immediately and demonstrably harm someone else.

 

Well we're on the same page here. The problem is, like I've stated, that you are keeping the homosexual sex = sin = bad viewpoint alive, which finds its way into hateful actions by those less virtuous than yourself.

 

Remember my previous post about how we're going to elect a senator and a governor who are still going to continue to legally discriminate against homosexuals by not affording them the same marriage rights as heterosexuals? That's discrimination based on the beliefs that you want to share with the world. I'm trying to squash those beliefs so that we can fight the root of this issue. Again, thought influences behavior, whether that behavior is a violent hate crime against gays or whether it is voting for that candidate who wants to make sure that homosexuals don't get the legal and financial and cultural benefits of marriage.

 

I can say that you're wrong based on morals because my side says, treat people equally because of their sexual orientation, a human trait that we're born with and that harms nobody. And your side says there's something WRONG with doing what heterosexuals do because the sky-creature said so and because MY BELIEFS WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF MY BELIEFS. Get a grip. When it comes to Landlord's beliefs vs. having any sort of normal quality of life for homosexuals, I know which side I'm on.

[ZRod]

If anyone wants a good laugh, have a quick looksee in the Out of Context Quotes thread. Some of the people throwing a sh!t-fit in this thread are some of the same ones poking the most fun at gay related comments. I don't think there is anything wrong with recognizing the humor inherent with some of these comments but I've gotta wonder how the same people can get so dang butthurt one moment and then turnaround and poke fun at aspects of being gay.

 

I did find that a bit perplexing, but it's really not much different than twisting someone's comment around about a mother or a that's what she said type joke.

[tschu]

Look, I'm never going to change Landlord's mind, which is sad, but probably true. But maybe someone is reading this and the wheels in their mind start turning a little bit. Maybe a lurker is starting to question his or her own beliefs about gays. Maybe, just maybe, I can do my part to fight for their acceptance and rights so that they can live the same quality of life that I do.

[Landlord]

Maybe, just maybe, I can do my part to fight for their acceptance and rights so that they can live the same quality of life that I do.

 

Trying to do exactly the same thing from the exact same motivation in my life dude