Which team was more talented?

[Omaha-Husker]

The cupboard hasn't been this bare since '04.

[Dr. Strangelove]

The cupboard hasn't been this bare since '04.

That's what it looks like when you recruit classes ranked in the 30s several years in a row.

 

That's why I harp on the staff when they offer some 2* nobody. People in the recruiting board act like everybody is a diamond-in-the-rough.

 

We have a tremendous amount of work to do on the recruiting trail, and it's not happening so far this class.

[Count 'Bility]

Stars next to a particular name are somewhat meanigless. Pretty hit or miss. Composite team recruiting rankings though. Those tell a pretty good story. I heard this on a show once. Cant remember which. But the fact was that since the bcs era in 1998, every team that played for the national title had a recruiting ranking average of the 4 seasons prior of the natty run season of 15 or higher with the exception of 99 va tech. And i think they said they were like 20 somethin. Outside them every team thats played for a national title since 1998 has averaged a top 15 class in the 4 cycles prior to said season in recruiting. They tell a solid tale. You have to have talent. Right now we recruit on the fringe of a top 25 class and were on the fringe of a top 25 program.

[Mavric]

Knapp asked McKewon on Twitter about the number of current and former (now on scholarship) walk-ons on the travel roster and participation report for Miami.

 

He had it at 33% of the travel roster (24/79) - which is closer to 30% but who's counting - and 20% of the participants (10/51).

 

I don't know where to find a travel roster but here's the participation report from the first road game (Texas Tech) in 2008.

 

1-Brooks, Chris,

3-Thenarse, R.,

7-Washington, L.,

8-Cassidy, Austin,

8A-Henry, Will,

10-Helu Jr., Roy,

11-Gilleylen, C.,

15-Dennard, A.,

19-Castille, Q.,

20-Kunalic, Adi,

21-Amukamara, P.,

22-Wald, Mason,

24-Paul, Niles,

25-Reed, Kyler,

30-Hays, Mike,

36-Lawson, Thomas,

37-Wesch, Jake,

40-Lawrence, Blake,

41-Grove, Thomas,

49-Young, Dreu,

52-Dillard, P.,

53-Wortman, Tyler,

56-Barfield, S.,

61-Huff, Mike,

72-Burkes, J.,

78-Jones, Marcel,

80-Hill, Ryan,

82-Cammack, Wes,

88-Sievers, C.,

89-Teafatiller, H.,

90-Henery, Alex.

 

Huskers.com

 

A quick count - and anyone please fill in the gaps - gives me Cassidy, Hays, Lawson, Wesch, Grove, Wortman, Burkes (?), Cammack and Henery. I don't think Teafatiller was a walk-on but he doesn't show up on Rivals or 247 so I'm not sure. Leaving him out, that would be 9 out of 31 or 29%.

 

Edit: To be fair, two of those are kickers so you could argue that 7 out of 29 would be a better number to look at which would be 24%

Edited September 21, 2015 by Mavric

[knapplc]

Knapp asked McKewon on Twitter about the number of current and former (now on scholarship) walk-ons on the travel roster and participation report for Miami.

 

He had it at 33% of the travel roster (24/79) - which is closer to 30% but who's counting - and 20% of the participants (10/51).

 

I don't know where to find a travel roster but here's the participation report from the first road game (Texas Tech) in 2008.

 

1-Brooks, Chris,

3-Thenarse, R.,

7-Washington, L.,

8-Cassidy, Austin,

8A-Henry, Will,

10-Helu Jr., Roy,

11-Gilleylen, C.,

15-Dennard, A.,

19-Castille, Q.,

20-Kunalic, Adi,

21-Amukamara, P.,

22-Wald, Mason,

24-Paul, Niles,

25-Reed, Kyler,

30-Hays, Mike,

36-Lawson, Thomas,

37-Wesch, Jake,

40-Lawrence, Blake,

41-Grove, Thomas,

49-Young, Dreu,

52-Dillard, P.,

53-Wortman, Tyler,

56-Barfield, S.,

61-Huff, Mike,

72-Burkes, J.,

78-Jones, Marcel,

80-Hill, Ryan,

82-Cammack, Wes,

88-Sievers, C.,

89-Teafatiller, H.,

90-Henery, Alex.

Huskers.com

 

A quick count - and anyone please fill in the gaps - gives me Cassidy, Hays, Lawson, Wesch, Grove, Wortman, Burkes (?), Cammack and Henery. I don't think Teafatiller was a walk-on but he doesn't show up on Rivals or 247 so I'm not sure. Leaving him out, that would be 9 out of 31 or 29%.

 

Edit: To be fair, two of those are kickers so you could argue that 7 out of 29 would be a better number to look at which would be 24%

 

That's not the full participation report for the 2008 Texas Tech game. Todd Peterson isn't listed and he caught a TD with 29 second to go to send it into overtime. Nate Swift caught five passes for 70 yards and he's not listed.

 

Here's the actual participation report for 2008 Texas Tech:

 

Nebraska

 

POS ## OFFENSE

X 87 Swift, Nate

QB 12 Ganz, Joe

TE 44 McNeill, Mike

Z 17 Peterson, Todd

LT 65 Smith, Mike

LG 68 Williams, Keith

C 67 Hickman, Jacob

RG 70 Slauson, Matt

RT 76 Murtha, Lydon

R 18 Holt, Menelik

I 5 Lucky, Marlon

 

POS ## DEFENSE

LE 98 Potter, Zach

NT 93 Suh, Ndamukong

DT 43 Steinkuhler, Ty

RE 95 Allen, Pierre

RC 5 Lucky, Marlon

DB 23 Thorell, Lance

MIKE 35 Holt, Matt

DB 28 Hagg, Eric

LC 6 Murillo, A.

SS 4 Asante, Larry

FS 33 O'Hanlon, Matt

 

Other contributors:

1-Brooks, Chris,

3-Thenarse, R.,

5A-West, Anthony,

7-Washington, L.,

8-Cassidy, Austin,

10-Helu Jr., Roy,

11-Gilleylen, C.,

15-Dennard, A.,

19-Castille, Q.,

20-Kunalic, Adi,

21-Amukamara, P.,

22-Wald, Mason,

24-Paul, Niles,

25-Reed, Kyler,

30-Hays, Mike,

34-Glenn, Cody,

36-Lawson, Thomas,

37-Wesch, Jake,

40-Lawrence, Blake,

41-Grove, Thomas,

49-Young, Dreu,

52-Dillard, P.,

53-Wortman, Tyler,

56-Barfield, S.,

61-Huff, Mike,

72-Burkes, J.,

78-Jones, Marcel,

80-Hill, Ryan,

82-Cammack, Wes,

88-Sievers, C.,

89-Teafatiller, H.,

90-Henery, Alex.

 

 

That's 54 guys, not 31. Nine out of 54 is 17%.

 

EDIT - Teafetiller was a walk-on. So however that changes the numbers.

 

And I don't get Sam's line of questioning with the "current or former walk-on." The point was about how many walk-ons vs. recruited athletes we had. Once a walk-on, always a walk-on for the purposes of that conversation.

[Mavric]

 

Knapp asked McKewon on Twitter about the number of current and former (now on scholarship) walk-ons on the travel roster and participation report for Miami.

 

He had it at 33% of the travel roster (24/79) - which is closer to 30% but who's counting - and 20% of the participants (10/51).

 

I don't know where to find a travel roster but here's the participation report from the first road game (Texas Tech) in 2008.

 

1-Brooks, Chris,

3-Thenarse, R.,

7-Washington, L.,

8-Cassidy, Austin,

8A-Henry, Will,

10-Helu Jr., Roy,

11-Gilleylen, C.,

15-Dennard, A.,

19-Castille, Q.,

20-Kunalic, Adi,

21-Amukamara, P.,

22-Wald, Mason,

24-Paul, Niles,

25-Reed, Kyler,

30-Hays, Mike,

36-Lawson, Thomas,

37-Wesch, Jake,

40-Lawrence, Blake,

41-Grove, Thomas,

49-Young, Dreu,

52-Dillard, P.,

53-Wortman, Tyler,

56-Barfield, S.,

61-Huff, Mike,

72-Burkes, J.,

78-Jones, Marcel,

80-Hill, Ryan,

82-Cammack, Wes,

88-Sievers, C.,

89-Teafatiller, H.,

90-Henery, Alex.

Huskers.com

 

A quick count - and anyone please fill in the gaps - gives me Cassidy, Hays, Lawson, Wesch, Grove, Wortman, Burkes (?), Cammack and Henery. I don't think Teafatiller was a walk-on but he doesn't show up on Rivals or 247 so I'm not sure. Leaving him out, that would be 9 out of 31 or 29%.

 

Edit: To be fair, two of those are kickers so you could argue that 7 out of 29 would be a better number to look at which would be 24%

 

That's not the full participation report for the 2008 Texas Tech game. Todd Peterson isn't listed and he caught a TD with 29 second to go to send it into overtime. Nate Swift caught five passes for 70 yards and he's not listed.

 

Here's the actual participation report for 2008 Texas Tech:

 

Nebraska

 

POS ## OFFENSE

X 87 Swift, Nate

QB 12 Ganz, Joe

TE 44 McNeill, Mike

Z 17 Peterson, Todd

LT 65 Smith, Mike

LG 68 Williams, Keith

C 67 Hickman, Jacob

RG 70 Slauson, Matt

RT 76 Murtha, Lydon

R 18 Holt, Menelik

I 5 Lucky, Marlon

 

POS ## DEFENSE

LE 98 Potter, Zach

NT 93 Suh, Ndamukong

DT 43 Steinkuhler, Ty

RE 95 Allen, Pierre

RC 5 Lucky, Marlon

DB 23 Thorell, Lance

MIKE 35 Holt, Matt

DB 28 Hagg, Eric

LC 6 Murillo, A.

SS 4 Asante, Larry

FS 33 O'Hanlon, Matt

 

Other contributors:

1-Brooks, Chris,

3-Thenarse, R.,

5A-West, Anthony,

7-Washington, L.,

8-Cassidy, Austin,

10-Helu Jr., Roy,

11-Gilleylen, C.,

15-Dennard, A.,

19-Castille, Q.,

20-Kunalic, Adi,

21-Amukamara, P.,

22-Wald, Mason,

24-Paul, Niles,

25-Reed, Kyler,

30-Hays, Mike,

34-Glenn, Cody,

36-Lawson, Thomas,

37-Wesch, Jake,

40-Lawrence, Blake,

41-Grove, Thomas,

49-Young, Dreu,

52-Dillard, P.,

53-Wortman, Tyler,

56-Barfield, S.,

61-Huff, Mike,

72-Burkes, J.,

78-Jones, Marcel,

80-Hill, Ryan,

82-Cammack, Wes,

88-Sievers, C.,

89-Teafatiller, H.,

90-Henery, Alex.

 

 

That's 54 guys, not 31. Nine out of 54 is 17%.

 

 

Thanks. I thought that seemed short but didn't look enough to see why. I see now those are the extra participants in addition to the starters.

 

But Peterson, Thorell and Holt were all walk-ons as well. So it's 13 out of 54 for 24%

Edited September 21, 2015 by Mavric
Edited for Teafetiler

[The Dude]

2008 by a country mile.

[knapplc]

So a difference of 8%? I don't know if that's a big deal or not. I'm sure that fluctuates from year to year, heck - game to game with travel/participation rosters.

 

Like I said in that conversation with Sam, I don't know if 30% is a lot or the norm. Jon Nyatawa chipped in some info about redshirts and such, which makes it inevitable that a chunk of guys on the participation report are going to be walk-ons.

[BigRedBuster]

Anyone voting for 2015 - line them up and show us who has more talent than 2008. Open mic time. Shoot.

I'll let you know at the end of the year when we see the final product for 2015. The view of the 2008 team is skewed due to how the defense did in 2009 and 2010. In 2008, they had some pretty bad showings. The first game of the year against Western Michigan, they gave up 24 points. They then went on to give up a lot of points in other games that year...an average of 28.5 points per game. In the games against unranked teams, they gave up 22 points per game. So far this year, Nebraska has given up 23.3 points. So....no....I'm not making judgements on the talent or coaching just after three games.

 

That talent on the 2008 team that gave up 28.5 points per game, went on to only give up 10.4 in 2009 and is thought of as one of our best defenses ever.

 

Now, the difference is that when Bo took over, everyone thought he was this defensive genius and would ultimately fix it. There wasn't anyone (that I remember) crying in 2008 claiming our coaching sucks because at that time, everyone had the opinion that it will take time for Bo to implement what he wants to do.

 

BUT....for some reason, in 20015, coaches are supposed to have everything taken care of and clicking great only 3 games into the season.

 

 

 

PS.....I'm not sure those same people think Bo is a defensive genius.

[Mavric]

I wasn't sure which thread to put this in but I put it here as I was comparing to the 2008 class. It might have been better placed in the thread about the current talent.

 

But I think it shows at the least judging by how many walk-ons are playing probably isn't that big of a deal, right?

 

And I think the top end of the 2008 roster was more talented - for sure on defense, not convinced on offense - but we don't appear to have much more depth if you're judging by the walk-on metric. And several of those scholarship players listed above were probably not any more talented than the walk-ons. I don't even remember hearing a bunch of those names and they were pretty low-rated coming out of high school. I guess signing big classes really only helps if you're actually getting quality kids with those extra numbers. Simply filling out a class with whoever you can get probably isn't that helpful.

[zoogs]

Stars next to a particular name are somewhat meanigless. Pretty hit or miss.

Exactly. Adam Taylor and Terrell Newby are 4 stars. Marlon Lucky was a 5 star who really panned out pretty well. You look at our RB recruiting and it's been good, star wise. But you don't know if you have a stable full of Marlon Luckys, or (a little better) if you have breakout college feature backs like Rex and Roy, or if you have a transcendental talent like Ameer in the mix.

 

 

The cupboard hasn't been this bare since '04.

That's what it looks like when you recruit classes ranked in the 30s several years in a row.

 

That's why I harp on the staff when they offer some 2* nobody. People in the recruiting board act like everybody is a diamond-in-the-rough.

 

We have a tremendous amount of work to do on the recruiting trail, and it's not happening so far this class.

 

It's partly that, and it's partly simply numbers management. Some 2* DE from GA might be getting his redshirt pulled soon because that's what we have available. See the above; how players pan out goes all over the map, even if you have a room full of a 4-stars (for example). There's no avoiding attrition and misses, but there is such a thing as having a chance at a soft landing. Nebraska has not been good at managing the numbers and milking every available spot for what it's worth, and they're paying for that now.

 

But I think it shows at the least judging by how many walk-ons are playing probably isn't that big of a deal, right?

Right. I'm kind of confused by the usage of this metric. It's interesting, but not informative. It's like judging a player not by where they are now, but by how many stars they had in high school.

[GBRedneck]

 

 

 

 

We don't have anywhere near the talent on this team that we had in 2008.

.... on defense. There was not much for offensive talent on the 08 team.

 

Joe Ganz

Roy Helu

Marlon Lucky

Quentin Castille

Meno Holt

Nate Swift

Todd Peterson

Mike McNeill

 

RB is the only spot that has noticeably more talent. Ganz may have a slight edge over TA in terms of talent but not by a lot. I love the Swift-Peterson-McNeill trio but there is no way they are more talented than Westerkamp-DPE-Carter.

 

The offenses are nearly identical. A little bit here, a little bit there, the only difference. Basically a tossup.

 

Should we compare defenses? Because that's where the HUGE difference is, and it's not even close. Hence the odd votes for 2015, because that 2008 team would demolish this team.

 

Yep. Unless you let Riley coach the '08 team and Bo coach the '15 team. Then they would flip flop.

[Mavric]

So a difference of 8%? I don't know if that's a big deal or not. I'm sure that fluctuates from year to year, heck - game to game with travel/participation rosters.

 

Like I said in that conversation with Sam, I don't know if 30% is a lot or the norm. Jon Nyatawa chipped in some info about redshirts and such, which makes it inevitable that a chunk of guys on the participation report are going to be walk-ons.

 

Yeah, I'd say it's 4% or less after all the finagling but the current team is actually the one with the lower percentage. Basically a wash which probably means there's nothing to that argument.

 

Pretty sure Nyatawa is right. I think 13 redshirting freshmen got left at home plus, when you're including former walk-ons, that's 8 more scholarships plus any injuries that got left home. That only leaves 64 minus the injuries so there's going to be a chunk of walk-ons that make the trip in any year. Perhaps you could say we have too many former walk-ons on scholarship but we always have some. Maybe not quite that many but probably never 0.

[knapplc]

I wasn't sure which thread to put this in but I put it here as I was comparing to the 2008 class. It might have been better placed in the thread about the current talent.

 

But I think it shows at the least judging by how many walk-ons are playing probably isn't that big of a deal, right?

 

And I think the top end of the 2008 roster was more talented - for sure on defense, not convinced on offense - but we don't appear to have much more depth if you're judging by the walk-on metric. And several of those scholarship players listed above were probably not any more talented than the walk-ons. I don't even remember hearing a bunch of those names and they were pretty low-rated coming out of high school. I guess signing big classes really only helps if you're actually getting quality kids with those extra numbers. Simply filling out a class with whoever you can get probably isn't that helpful.

Both teams, 2008 & 2015, started three Walk-Ons for their first road games. So yeah, maybe the Walk-On conversation is a wash.

 

2008

Todd Peterson

Lance Thorrell

Matt Holt

 

2015

Dylan Utter

Brandon Reilly

Lane Hovey

[Blackshirt316]

Suh, Prince, Henery.

 

Those three are better than anyone playing right now.

 

You give Pelini and the 08' team this years schedule and take those 3 guys away and we're 1-2. Give Riley exactly what he has plus those three guys and we're 3-0.