Gun Control

[Guy Chamberlin]

9 hours ago, DefenderAO said:

I like it. Do you feel you do this well in practice? What is your key, if yes, or hang up, if no? 
 

Where do you find it the most challenging to live by this principle?

 

It's funny, cause you find The Golden Rule at the core of Christianity and a version of it in almost every major religion. It's so simple you could almost shut the book right there. 

 

Of course it's not as easy in practice because deep down we'd prefer other people to treat us better than we're willing to treat them. I'm far from perfect at it, but when I do find myself in that moral conundrum, I put myself in the other person's shoes (or ask them to put themselves in mine) and it absolutely provides a baseline for understanding and resolution. 

[nic]

Two observations. From the right media, I am seeing suggestions of blame put on the fact the shooter was trans and therefore unstable. In my opinion, humans are capable of doing awful things to other humans regardless of race, creed, identity, nationality. 

 

From the left I am seeing comments that the Christians had it coming for being transphobic. I had a pro-life friend a couple decades comment on an abortion clinic shooter, saying he could understand the hopelessness that the shooter may have felt in trying to stop abortions. I stopped associating with him after that. There is no justification for such responses. 

[DefenderAO]

1 minute ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

Surely you know that everything from opioid addiction, to unwanted children, to mental health, to mass shooting are not inner city problem but everywhere problems. If you can choose a time in America when you believe there was less moral decay, you will find many of the same cultural issues (and more) that were simply not talked about. 

For shootings specifically - I'm not speaking to cultural issues as the sole problem, but the plurality (I do not believe there is any categorically a majority) of shootings are with a handgun.  And shooting statistics give national, state, and city data on where this is happening.  It's widespread, yes, but happening once somewhere is different than happening 25 times a day somewhere else.  

 

- Where do they happen

- How often

- What is being used

 

This could help with the why.

 

 

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

4 minutes ago, nic said:

Two observations. From the right media, I am seeing suggestions of blame put on the fact the shooter was trans and therefore unstable. In my opinion, humans are capable of doing awful things to other humans regardless of race, creed, identity, nationality. 

 

From the left I am seeing comments that the Christians had it coming for being transphobic. I had a pro-life friend a couple decades comment on an abortion clinic shooter, saying he could understand the hopelessness that the shooter may have felt in trying to stop abortions. I stopped associating with him after that. There is no justification for such responses. 

 

Are you really seeing comments that Christians had it coming? That's some really tortured logic. I've waded through a lot of liberal grief and anger and not seen anything close to that rationalization. Wondering if a couple stupid people made that argument and it got over-amplified by certain news sources desperate for the distraction. 

[Guy Chamberlin]

3 minutes ago, DefenderAO said:

  It's widespread, yes, but happening once somewhere is different than happening 25 times a day somewhere else.  

 

 

You may want to explore this through the lens of "per capita"

[Guy Chamberlin]

Times change. Truths change. Here's a famous response to radio host Dr. Laura from 20 years ago:

 

Dear Dr. Laura,

 

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

 

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

 

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord ( Lev 1:9 ). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7 . In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness ( Lev 15:19-24 ). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination ( Lev 11:10 ), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27 . How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? ( Lev 24:10-16 ) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? ( Lev. 20:14 )

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

[DefenderAO]

13 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

It's funny, cause you find The Golden Rule at the core of Christianity and a version of it in almost every major religion. It's so simple you could almost shut the book right there. 

 

Of course it's not as easy in practice because deep down we'd prefer other people to treat us better than we're willing to treat them. I'm far from perfect at it, but when I do find myself in that moral conundrum, I put myself in the other person's shoes (or ask them to put themselves in mine) and it absolutely provides a baseline for understanding and resolution. 

True, it seems to be a universal principle agnostic of religion.  

 

I struggle with it most with people I'm at odds with.  A true sign of growth and maturity seems to be acting in accordance with the rule when external factors (people, stress etc) push against our ability or desire to do so.

[NM11046]

Super interesting article, poll of 400 AR owners.  Some confirmation for me, and lots of more interesting info (for me) on race, education level, military past etc.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/interactive/2023/american-ar-15-gun-owners/?itid=hp-top-table-main_p001_f001

 

[DefenderAO]

28 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

Times change. Truths change. Here's a famous response to radio host Dr. Laura from 20 years ago:

 

Dear Dr. Laura,

 

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

 

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

 

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord ( Lev 1:9 ). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7 . In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness ( Lev 15:19-24 ). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination ( Lev 11:10 ), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27 . How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? ( Lev 24:10-16 ) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? ( Lev. 20:14 )

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

I'm familiar with this and these types of conversations.  To spare a point by point, three thoughts:

 

1. If we take Jesus as legitimate and not a liar or lunatic (and you have heard this I'm sure) - He lived without sin, took our sin on him as a sacrifice, died, imputed His perfection on us through faith in Him, and then conquered death by rising from it.  Jesus' life, death, resurrection became the fulfillment of old laws that did not have salvific sustainment in and of themselves.  This, of course, if you believe His legitimacy.  He claimed to be one with God.  That's a huge assertion. 

 

2.  The old law was to show a dichotomy of our shortcomings and a Holy God.  Moving through the Old Testament you see many egregious failures and wrongs from people whose standing was considered "faithful."  The tenets above didn't save, they showed incapability.  For today, I'm chief of incapable...

 

3. The Bible is long, but a way I've seen it broken up is both instruction and information. For the latter, the Bible, and other manuscripts or literature, tell of what was happening as informational but not necessarily instructional.  Much of the above seems instructional, but from points 1 and 2, we see our inability and Jesus' fulfilling offer.

 

As to the gun control tie in, this is a. being transparent in what I've studied and b. a hopefully better/kinder way to say I believe we fall short and have a need.  All life is valuable, free agency and our will act messily (sometimes egregiously) against this intrinsic value.   More causal core issues that too often lead some to using a tool for hurting others.

[Lorewarn]

10 hours ago, DefenderAO said:

Where do you see a book like the Bible fit in to what you’ve come to see? 

 

 

The Bible is a rich library of different people in different times and different places and different cultures with different, trying to figure out what it all means. 

 

Spoiler alert the nature of God changes all the time in the Bible. Even the almighty never-changing "same today as he is tomorrow" exclusive deity changes with the whims of the cultures trying to experience it.

[DefenderAO]

16 minutes ago, NM11046 said:

Super interesting article, poll of 400 AR owners.  Some confirmation for me, and lots of more interesting info (for me) on race, education level, military past etc.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/interactive/2023/american-ar-15-gun-owners/?itid=hp-top-table-main_p001_f001

 

Good data.  The income one isn't surprising as they are not inexpensive at the higher quality.  Then you look at options like Night Vision and thermal etc.  No surprise.

[DefenderAO]

1 minute ago, Lorewarn said:

 

 

The Bible is a rich library of different people in different times and different places and different cultures with different, trying to figure out what it all means. 

 

Spoiler alert the nature of God changes all the time in the Bible. Even the almighty never-changing "same today as he is tomorrow" exclusive deity changes with the whims of the cultures trying to experience it.

Some in the Christian faith have tweaked your second thought and would say God is dispensational by nature, is outside of time, but reveals Himself differently to us throughout time.  

 

I'll use a analogy that isn't perfect - my four kiddos are all different in personality and season they're in in life.  I try to be consistent and fair to all of them.  I love them all the same but also love their uniqueness and passions.  When it comes time to discipline or celebrate, it might look differently based upon the child's likes, dispositions, actions etc.  I'm the same dad at the core with some immovable positions (it is not okay to disrespect mom), it just may look differently based upon season, circumstance, or child.  

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

9 minutes ago, DefenderAO said:

I'm familiar with this and these types of conversations.  To spare a point by point, three thoughts:

 

1. If we take Jesus as legitimate and not a liar or lunatic (and you have heard this I'm sure) - He lived without sin, took our sin on him as a sacrifice, died, imputed His perfection on us through faith in Him, and then conquered death by rising from it.  Jesus' life, death, resurrection became the fulfillment of old laws that did not have salvific sustainment in and of themselves.  This, of course, if you believe His legitimacy.  He claimed to be one with God.  That's a huge assertion. 

 

2.  The old law were to show a dichotomy of our shortcomings and a Holy God.  Moving through the Old Testament you see many egregious failures and wrongs from people whose standing was considered "faithful."  The tenets above didn't save, they showed incapability.  For today, I'm chief of incapable...

 

3. The Bible is long, but a way I've seen it broken up is both instruction and information. For the latter, the Bible, and other manuscripts or literature, tell of what was happening as informational but not necessarily instructional.  Much of the above seems instructional, but from points 1 and 2, we see our inability and Jesus' fulfilling offer.

 

As to the gun control tie in, this is a. being transparent in what I've studied and b. a hopefully better/kinder way to say I believe we fall short and have a need.  All life is valuable, free agency and our will act messily (sometimes egregiously) against this intrinsic value.   More casual core issues that too often lead some to using a tool for hurting others.

 

Well there was an Old Testament and a New Testament, each loaded with inviolate truths handed down from God, but at the same time suggesting those truths had changed and evolved considerably. 

[Guy Chamberlin]

32 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

Are you really seeing comments that Christians had it coming? That's some really tortured logic. I've waded through a lot of liberal grief and anger and not seen anything close to that rationalization. Wondering if a couple stupid people made that argument and it got over-amplified by certain news sources desperate for the distraction. 

 

Okay. It's now becoming clear that "Our Trans will kill your Christian children" was hatched by panicky rightwing think tank influencers and amplified by the likes of Donald Trump Jr. 

 

Might just win the False Equivalency sweepstakes. 

[DefenderAO]

4 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

Well there was an Old Testament and a New Testament, each loaded with inviolate truths handed down from God, but at the same time suggesting those truths had changed and evolved considerably. 

I believe they were there to show inadequacy, in principle, which was fulfilled through Jesus (perfect life, death, arose).  They were never meant to save and do zero for fixing us today. They were stated, yes, but no one could keep up with their burden and weight.  They were God's standard, and the Father met the standard through the Son.