Hamilton

[Moiraine]

Are we supposed to not care about an issue because it only affects a minority group?

 

Also, it's not a minor issue to a woman in Indiana who's been raped

[JJ Husker]

Are those communities not legitimate?

 

I believe the 'sadistic' comment refers to the burial ceremony requirement for aborted fetuses.

 

Or perhaps it was a reference to his push to limit the definition of rape to "forcible rape" in abortion law.

 

Both seem grotesquely cruel to me.

Are we supposed to not care about an issue because it only affects a minority group?

Also, it's not a minor issue to a woman in Indiana who's been raped

Whoa whoa whoa. See this is part of what I'm talking about. The instant demonization of any voice that isn't flipping out. Who said those communities are not legitimate? Who said it's not a major issue for a woman who has been raped? Who said you shouldn't show concern for the GLBT community or express concern about specific abortion law provisions? I sure didnt. I just think there is a more logical way to go about it than wild indignation over everything either one of these bozos has ever been near.

 

Sorry, I forgot where I was. I'll try to avoid the forum until sh#t dies down a bit. That's not looking like anytime soon so maybe in about 4 years.

[zoogs]

This is what I'm trying to figure out, JJ:

 

Sorry, just getting tired of all the over dramatizing of every little thing. There's plenty of legitimate things to get up in arms over with these two.

 

I agree there are plenty of things. In what way is this an illegitimate thing?

 

Is it Trump's (dare I say dramatic) demanding of an apology that should not be criticized the way it has? Is it Pence's abortion or LGBT record that have been maligned unfairly?

 

It seems like you are suggesting one or both of these. Forgive me if I have misunderstood.

[Moiraine]

 

Are those communities not legitimate?

 

I believe the 'sadistic' comment refers to the burial ceremony requirement for aborted fetuses.

 

Or perhaps it was a reference to his push to limit the definition of rape to "forcible rape" in abortion law.

 

Both seem grotesquely cruel to me.

Are we supposed to not care about an issue because it only affects a minority group?

Also, it's not a minor issue to a woman in Indiana who's been raped

Whoa whoa whoa. See this is part of what I'm talking about. The instant demonization of any voice that isn't flipping out. Who said those communities are not legitimate? Who said it's not a major issue for a woman who has been raped? Who said you shouldn't show concern for the GLBT community or express concern about specific abortion law provisions? I sure didnt. I just think there is a more logical way to go about it than wild indignation over everything either one of these bozos has ever been near.

 

Sorry, I forgot where I was. I'll try to avoid the forum until sh#t dies down a bit. That's not looking like anytime soon so maybe in about 4 years.

You just stated people are "completely flipping out over every little article." There are legitimate reasons people are "flipping out." Just because it only affects a small proportion of people doesn't mean people shouldn't be upset by it.

 

Also, no one said you, personally, have to "flip out." Not sure where you're getting that idea. It's fine not to have this be a major issue on your radar. That doesn't mean the people who see this as an important issue are being irrational. (For the record, I haven't "flipped out" over it).

[teachercd]

Every issue, no matter how "big" or "small" should be treated exactly the same, I think we can all agree with that, right?

[HuskermanMike]

 

Here is a good article on why people are stereotyping that Pence is totally hateful of LGBTQ people. His law in Indiana was not to prevent LGBTQ people from having rights, rather to protect religious freedom.

 

 

You forgot about the part where he's in favor of electroshock conversion therapy.

He never said that on record, this article proves that and shows the false article by eRumor.

 

https://www.truthorfiction.com/mike-pence-supports-electroshock-gay-conversion-therapy/

[Bigred_inSD]

Every issue, no matter how "big" or "small" should be treated exactly the same, I think we can all agree with that, right?

"Exactly the same" " fairness". That sounds like some socialism talk! There no place for that in America!!! " probably Husker 84 logic

[TonyStalloni]

Republican presidents and VP's shouldn't attend theatres anyway. Did we learn nothing from Abe Lincoln? Might as well be playing Russian Roulette. Better throw a "sarcasm" flag on this or someone will have their nose out of joint.

[teachercd]

Republican presidents and VP's shouldn't attend theatres anyway. Did we learn nothing from Abe Lincoln? Might as well be playing Russian Roulette. Better throw a "sarcasm" flag on this or someone will have their nose out of joint.

Prediction, at least 3 people were getting ready to pounce.

[HuskermanMike]

Huskerman, I think I understand what you're saying. And you're right, none of us regular folks are judged by our politics, because we're not professional politicians. We don't do it for a living. Our opinions aren't our livelihood, and our opinions and decisions don't directly impact anyone but ourselves. When someone determines that they want to work for the public, and represent them (and be paid for it) then they will get feedback - all the time, and in public. As someone takes a national office that's typically going to escalate vs. what they got in state office. We elect them to fairly represent the opinions of the people - all of them. I think it's interesting that the one person we haven't heard from in all this is Pence himself. My guess is that he has had a lot worse said to him in far less a polished way.

 

I disagree with your perspective on his Indiana legislation, and that's not all the comments were about. I don't see how allowing businesses to pick and choose their customers is a positive. Ever. If they are doing that then they're not a public business and perhaps should align themselves to just do business within the church, only to members of their church. Doesn't matter if the issue is whether the gay person is just buying a candy bar or a wedding cake - why is selling to the first ok and the later not? If you don't believe in gay marriage, then why would you be ok selling to me as a single gay person? (correct me if I'm reading your example above incorrectly). I don't believe in pro life agenda - would they sell me a cake on my wedding day to my male finance? Is there to be a questionnaire on their beliefs that any customer must complete to see if someone can do business with them? Seems to me that the deeper in the weeds we go with that, we might as well wear labels on our coats so that business and people can decide on sight that they can turn me away (sound familiar?) If a person has strong enough beliefs that they are not open to working with certain people who hold certain beliefs then they shouldn't be open as a business.

 

I don't think it's all about that particular legislation he proposed either. Some stems from his:

1. Comments about supporting an HIV/Aids initiative and saying that the money should only be given to programs that are doing work to help people change their sexual behavior.
2. Being part of a group that came out saying that being gay is a choice, and that marriage between same sex couples will bring societal collapse.
3. Opposition of a law that said gays should be protected in the work place.
4. Opposition of the repeal of Don't Ask Don't Tell
5. Years of anti LGBT comments as a radio host

And let's not forget - their comments weren't representative of just the LGBT community (I think it's interesting people assume that because it's the theatre) - if you look at the group there are women, there are muslims, there are latinos, there are people who have handicapped friends and family members, etc. I could write a book about the issues that he's backed that concern all these other folks (lack of equal pay for women and minorities, defunding PP etc) as well as his concerning beliefs that "smoking doesn't kill" and other beliefs that go directly against common, known scientific truths.

Wow I commend you for the long response, I was not expecting that. Any business can deny selling to a customer. If the customer comes in to start fights or throws a fit every time to cause an uproar the store may ask them to leave, thus not selling to them. In this instance, the owner would not kick them out of the store, rather, not sell to them because of the owners/stores beliefs. To the bold, we have religious freedom in this country, so saying someone can only sell to people of certain religions/church's is ridiculous that is why we have a first amendment. The business I assume wants to make money, that is why they create a public business. I do not see a big deal in this, if you are pro traditional marriage and you sell wedding cakes and you do not believe or agree with gay marriage, you may chose not to sell a cake to a gay couple.

 

To the Italicized ok, that was not in the discussion but I am pro-life because I believe the deliberate killing of a child is a sin. Even in rape or incest because all life is precious and people love to take that for granted, if this were the case, the mother should have the baby and put it up for adoption if they so choose. Also the baby feels pain at 20 weeks. But this is not a pro-life thread so I am ending that here.

 

I do not know why anyone would have their customers fill out a questionnaire on their beliefs, when you want a cake made you say I want two men on top of that with a priest marrying us. The business says we do not wish to do business with you/ make that cake because we don't believe in that. The people would redirect them to a place that would sell them and help them out as best as they could, they just would not do business. We don't need to wear labels and I never said that, this is the problem in this country we label a group of people and say all of these people are automatically this or automatically that. This is why the bakery would sell to every customer on the block just not the ones that want to do business with them against the owners beliefs.

 

The 1-5 are things he stands for as his beliefs, the only thing I disagree with him on in number three,as everyone should be protected and not harmed regardless of beliefs. But I also do not recall him signing that but if he did then he did. Don't ask don't tell Bill Clinton wanted it passed, but even so, he was still for traditional marriage and he did not like the fact of military members getting distracted by their work. If Pence is against LGBTQ people getting married that is his belief, but all this hate thrown at him is unwarranted because people are saying he is a bad person or evil for having a belief and standing up for it. I still don't get how people are afraid of pp getting defunded, it saves us 500 million ish dollars a year.

 

If you could cite a source as to what he has said that would affect handicapped members that would be great. Not sure if that was what you were trying to get at but it sounded like you were. Besides the smoking doesn't kill, what other scientific thing does he go against? It is just an opinion by you with no known fact to back it up.

My sources Abortion ones

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/barbara-boland/planned-parenthood-got-5406-million-government-grants-fy-2013

http://www.factcheck.org/2015/05/does-a-fetus-feel-pain-at-20-weeks/

Bill Clinton

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_Marriage_Act

 

I am not strictly calling you out for not having sources, rather if pence did say stuff that was against science, I want to see it to believe it.

[JJ Husker]

Sorry, you guys are right. If all of these things are a big deal to you, go ahead and raise hell about them. My problem is (and yes, it is my problem) I have real problems that affect me personally and I'm sorry but I don't really have the luxury or time to get overly concerned with things that won't have somewhat of an immediate impact on my life. That may seem cold and selfish but that's the way it is. If these issues touch close to home for you, or if you have nothing else to worry about (or hell, anywhere in between) then you should say and do what you want about them. I'm going to try to refrain from putting my own personal stamp of disapproval level on things. What is very important to others may not seem that urgent to me and vice versa. Carry on. See ya on the other side.

[BigRedBuster]

I find it interesting that we have a president elect that is so immature that he goes on a Twitter rant because some actors read a statement to his VP elect.

[Danny Bateman]

A polite statement.

 

But again, here we are talking about this Hamilton thing for the third day in a row instead of how he just paid millions to settle for defrauding people or how his kids, who are running his business (NOT a blind trust) are sitting in on both meetings with diplomats and his foreign business partners.

 

He's trying to bury legitimate scandals about conflicts of interest with stupidity.

[NM11046]

 

Huskerman, I think I understand what you're saying. And you're right, none of us regular folks are judged by our politics, because we're not professional politicians. We don't do it for a living. Our opinions aren't our livelihood, and our opinions and decisions don't directly impact anyone but ourselves. When someone determines that they want to work for the public, and represent them (and be paid for it) then they will get feedback - all the time, and in public. As someone takes a national office that's typically going to escalate vs. what they got in state office. We elect them to fairly represent the opinions of the people - all of them. I think it's interesting that the one person we haven't heard from in all this is Pence himself. My guess is that he has had a lot worse said to him in far less a polished way.

 

I disagree with your perspective on his Indiana legislation, and that's not all the comments were about. I don't see how allowing businesses to pick and choose their customers is a positive. Ever. If they are doing that then they're not a public business and perhaps should align themselves to just do business within the church, only to members of their church. Doesn't matter if the issue is whether the gay person is just buying a candy bar or a wedding cake - why is selling to the first ok and the later not? If you don't believe in gay marriage, then why would you be ok selling to me as a single gay person? (correct me if I'm reading your example above incorrectly). I don't believe in pro life agenda - would they sell me a cake on my wedding day to my male finance? Is there to be a questionnaire on their beliefs that any customer must complete to see if someone can do business with them? Seems to me that the deeper in the weeds we go with that, we might as well wear labels on our coats so that business and people can decide on sight that they can turn me away (sound familiar?) If a person has strong enough beliefs that they are not open to working with certain people who hold certain beliefs then they shouldn't be open as a business.

 

I don't think it's all about that particular legislation he proposed either. Some stems from his:

1. Comments about supporting an HIV/Aids initiative and saying that the money should only be given to programs that are doing work to help people change their sexual behavior.
2. Being part of a group that came out saying that being gay is a choice, and that marriage between same sex couples will bring societal collapse.
3. Opposition of a law that said gays should be protected in the work place.
4. Opposition of the repeal of Don't Ask Don't Tell
5. Years of anti LGBT comments as a radio host

And let's not forget - their comments weren't representative of just the LGBT community (I think it's interesting people assume that because it's the theatre) - if you look at the group there are women, there are muslims, there are latinos, there are people who have handicapped friends and family members, etc. I could write a book about the issues that he's backed that concern all these other folks (lack of equal pay for women and minorities, defunding PP etc) as well as his concerning beliefs that "smoking doesn't kill" and other beliefs that go directly against common, known scientific truths.

Wow I commend you for the long response, I was not expecting that. Any business can deny selling to a customer. If the customer comes in to start fights or throws a fit every time to cause an uproar the store may ask them to leave, thus not selling to them. In this instance, the owner would not kick them out of the store, rather, not sell to them because of the owners/stores beliefs. To the bold, we have religious freedom in this country, so saying someone can only sell to people of certain religions/church's is ridiculous that is why we have a first amendment. The business I assume wants to make money, that is why they create a public business. I do not see a big deal in this, if you are pro traditional marriage and you sell wedding cakes and you do not believe or agree with gay marriage, you may chose not to sell a cake to a gay couple.

 

To the Italicized ok, that was not in the discussion but I am pro-life because I believe the deliberate killing of a child is a sin. Even in rape or incest because all life is precious and people love to take that for granted, if this were the case, the mother should have the baby and put it up for adoption if they so choose. Also the baby feels pain at 20 weeks. But this is not a pro-life thread so I am ending that here.

 

I do not know why anyone would have their customers fill out a questionnaire on their beliefs, when you want a cake made you say I want two men on top of that with a priest marrying us. The business says we do not wish to do business with you/ make that cake because we don't believe in that. The people would redirect them to a place that would sell them and help them out as best as they could, they just would not do business. We don't need to wear labels and I never said that, this is the problem in this country we label a group of people and say all of these people are automatically this or automatically that. This is why the bakery would sell to every customer on the block just not the ones that want to do business with them against the owners beliefs.

 

The 1-5 are things he stands for as his beliefs, the only thing I disagree with him on in number three,as everyone should be protected and not harmed regardless of beliefs. But I also do not recall him signing that but if he did then he did. Don't ask don't tell Bill Clinton wanted it passed, but even so, he was still for traditional marriage and he did not like the fact of military members getting distracted by their work. If Pence is against LGBTQ people getting married that is his belief, but all this hate thrown at him is unwarranted because people are saying he is a bad person or evil for having a belief and standing up for it. I still don't get how people are afraid of pp getting defunded, it saves us 500 million ish dollars a year.

 

If you could cite a source as to what he has said that would affect handicapped members that would be great. Not sure if that was what you were trying to get at but it sounded like you were. Besides the smoking doesn't kill, what other scientific thing does he go against? It is just an opinion by you with no known fact to back it up.

My sources Abortion ones

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/barbara-boland/planned-parenthood-got-5406-million-government-grants-fy-2013

http://www.factcheck.org/2015/05/does-a-fetus-feel-pain-at-20-weeks/

Bill Clinton

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_Marriage_Act

 

I am not strictly calling you out for not having sources, rather if pence did say stuff that was against science, I want to see it to believe it.

 

Hey there - sorry if I confused things. I wasn't using the abortion comments to stir things, up - only that and the other "what ifs' in my first paragraph to put examples out showing that we don't currently have ways for businesses to find out my beliefs before selling to me. Whether its buying a cake for my gay wedding, a cake for my birthday (when I am a pro choice believer, a pizza for my muslim friend, if I am an atheist etc) - if having your beliefs coincide totally with your customers is a reason for denying working with them, then there are lots and lots of other people you are probably offended by, and that you'd choose not to do business with if you knew. Starting to chose to define customers this way is the beginning of a very slippery slope. It's easy to discriminate based on visible things (i.e. blacks at the back of a bus - not allowed to use certain drinking fountains) - how is not selling to gays different than that? People honestly believed that there was a difference and a hierarchy as to why that behavior was the norm. There is very little to set apart not working with homosexuals and not allowing people of color the same access as we did prior to the 60's.

 

I'm happy to get you the sources on my Mike Pence comments - later in the day when I have some time. I do think that if you listen to the comments made to Pence by the cast, it was broad reaching, they were telling him of their fear of his administration - not just him, so it's broader than just the comments he's been reported as saying. Handicapped for sure was a Trump thing. But I'll circle back to this later.

[NM11046]

Mike Pence & "Science"

 

Mike doesn't believe smoking kills - from his 2001 website, while fighting in congress for the FDA to not have oversight over tobacco.

 

"Pence warned that the government shouldn’t be able to regulate people’s smoking habits and that, moreover, the public health arguments against tobacco use were downright false. “Time for a quick reality check,” wrote Pence. “Despite the hysteria from the political class and the media, smoking doesn’t kill.”

Pence doesn't believe in global climate warming:

Pence compares concerns over a warming climate to Chicken Little crying out that the sky is falling.

Pence went on to claim that the Earth has actually been cooling over the past 50 years. (Nine out of the ten hottest years since 1880 have occurred in the past decade, according to NASA).

Mike thinks stem cell research is "obsolete"

“... thanks to science itself, there are better alternatives that uphold the sanctity of life,” wrote Pence. “Over the past two years, scientific breakthroughs have rendered embryonic stem-cell research obsolete, effectively removing any perceived need to destroy human embryos in the name of science. Adult stem cells have been used to treat an estimated 11,000 patients in the United States in the past two years alone, and over 70 diseases, including Parkinson’s and diabetes, have been treated using adult stem cells.”

While it’s true that adult stem cells have been used in promising research, the potential of embryonic stem cells has by no means faded and is still being explored by numerous academic and scientific institutions. In fact, just this week, researchers at the Stanford School of Medicineannounced a breakthrough in the field, rapidly growing 12 different types of specialized cells such as heart and bone tissue from embryonic stem cells.

Pence thinks Abortion inducing drugs are dangerous

In Indiana, the abortion pill in question was mifepristone, which has been in use in this country for 15 years and around the globe for 35 years. The drug works by suppressing progesterone, which the body needs to sustain a pregnancy. The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists recommends it. And it’s not just for women seeking abortions: It is also used to treat an incomplete miscarriage.

Pence doesn't believe needle exchange programs have benefit:

Pence had long been a vocal opponent of needle exchange programs, which allow drug users to trade in used syringes for sterile ones in order to stop the spread of diseases, despite evidence that they work. Such programs were banned in the state when the outbreak started.

At the end of March last year, four months after the outbreak began, Pence declared a public health emergency, allowing needle exchanges to be opened in Scott County. Scott County Health Officer Dr. R. Kevin Rogers described the program as having “a tremendously positive and dramatic impact” and recently made a successful request to have the program extended until May 2017. At least four other counties have been allowed to start programs as well.

http://www.popsci.com/top-5-worst-mike-pence-quotes-on-science#page-4

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2016/11/10/trump-and-pence-on-science-in-their-own-words/

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/two-times-mike-pence-brushed-off-science/

http://fortune.com/2016/07/15/mike-pence-donald-trump-science/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/shaenamontanari/2016/11/10/vp-elect-mike-pence-does-not-accept-evolution-heres-why-that-matters/#7bc98e5c1977

There are a ton more sources I could reference but I thought these to be unbiased, fair and balanced.