ZRod Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 If Hannity is any indication, the minute of his radio show I heard today indicates the alt right is going to playuo Comey as some bad guy for only writting memos about Trump. Link to comment
NM11046 Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 All I could think about today were all the people who voted for this man who admitted he was a horrible person (you know, the sexual assaults, the bankruptcies, the shady business dealings, the sex talk tape, the divorces, the birtherisms etc). They cast their vote for the talking points and propaganda. I will never understand how that can overcome WHO a person is. Sadder yet - I don't know that many would do anything differently. Perhaps some of those who chose not to vote cuz they didn't like their options, or those who voted for independent runners have changed their minds? I know we have some of those here - does your vote change when you think about how it counted (or didn't) strategically? 1 Link to comment
Danny Bateman Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 It still blows my mind there are kids going through their formative years right now who have Trump as their old reference as to what a president is. I'm talking the ones who were too young to pay much attention to Obama. He's their W. Absolutely nuts. Horrible frame of reference. 1 Link to comment
JJ Husker Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 All I could think about today were all the people who voted for this man who admitted he was a horrible person (you know, the sexual assaults, the bankruptcies, the shady business dealings, the sex talk tape, the divorces, the birtherisms etc). They cast their vote for the talking points and propaganda. I will never understand how that can overcome WHO a person is. Sadder yet - I don't know that many would do anything differently. Perhaps some of those who chose not to vote cuz they didn't like their options, or those who voted for independent runners have changed their minds? I know we have some of those here - does your vote change when you think about how it counted (or didn't) strategically? I didn't vote for Trump or Hillary, and I still would never vote for either of them. Although, at the time, I didn't think Trump would be this big of a cluster. I know better now. As far as strategically, my lack of a vote didn't help elect Trump. I'm in Colorado and Hillary won all the electoral votes here. Link to comment
zoogs Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 I don't think it's that easy to say it didn't help. To some degree we're all participants in this democracy. To me it was a CLEAR choice between Trump and Hillary. The general attitude of "I won't vote for either, they're both so bad" that permeated the entire country *helped* to bring Hillary down in states that shouldn't have been close. None of us can claim total separation from this attitude, which is why I felt it was worth pushing back against no matter what the state. National perception do not form in a vacuum, and however fair or unfair they were, they shouldn't have been in the same galaxy of rendering these two candidates indistinguishable. Link to comment
Danny Bateman Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 Sessions is a liar. He's pretty well screwed. Edit: I should add, he SHOULD be screwed. He's arguably perjured himself multiple times or is simply too incompetent to understand the forms he needed to fill out. Regardless, for anything to come of it, Republicans would have to act. As they'd have to for anything to happen to Trump. I guess we'll just keep on waiting... 2 Link to comment
Danny Bateman Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 Huh. So either the Sessions-led DOJ is lying about that meeting, or NBC got fed some bad info. I'll leave it up to you to decide. But remember that this is how Trump appointees are going to lead our institutions. Link to comment
JJ Husker Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 I don't think it's that easy to say it didn't help. To some degree we're all participants in this democracy. To me it was a CLEAR choice between Trump and Hillary. The general attitude of "I won't vote for either, they're both so bad" that permeated the entire country *helped* to bring Hillary down in states that shouldn't have been close.None of us can claim total separation from this attitude, which is why I felt it was worth pushing back against no matter what the state. National perception do not form in a vacuum, and however fair or unfair they were, they shouldn't have been in the same galaxy of rendering these two candidates indistinguishable. I understand this and can accept it. It is now obvious, and maybe it was for most back at election time, that Trump is/was worse than Hillary. But I still maintain that neither of them were fit to hold the office of POTUS. Sorry but I refuse to be forced/cajoled/harassed into voting for anyone who is less than acceptable for the position. Clearly one wouldve been better and more qualified but they still both fell short of what I feel is an acceptable standard. So you can blame me for Trump all you want, if you want, but the complete lack of any worthy candidate is mostly to blame IMO. The fact that the Trump administration is such an absolute train wreck sure does lend some validity to your POV but I'm just not going to play that game. And we don't need to rehash why you feel Hillary was worthy. I know that's how many feel and I also understand many are willing to vote based on the lesser of two evils. I just won't have my vote extorted that way. The solution is for at least one of the parties to nominate an acceptable human being. Maybe this is one of those situations where things had to get worse before they can begin to get better. I mean really, if Trump supporters don't start coming around to reality, this country is screwed anyway. Link to comment
JJ Husker Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 It still blows my mind there are kids going through their formative years right now who have Trump as their old reference as to what a president is. I'm talking the ones who were too young to pay much attention to Obama. He's their W. Absolutely nuts. Horrible frame of reference. Nixon is the first President I actually remember as a youth. I was born about 5 months before Kennedy was shot. Point being, as many problems as Nixon had, I'd take him in a heartbeat over Trump. Link to comment
RedDenver Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 All I could think about today were all the people who voted for this man who admitted he was a horrible person (you know, the sexual assaults, the bankruptcies, the shady business dealings, the sex talk tape, the divorces, the birtherisms etc). They cast their vote for the talking points and propaganda. I will never understand how that can overcome WHO a person is. Sadder yet - I don't know that many would do anything differently. Perhaps some of those who chose not to vote cuz they didn't like their options, or those who voted for independent runners have changed their minds? I know we have some of those here - does your vote change when you think about how it counted (or didn't) strategically? I didn't vote for Trump or Hillary, and I still would never vote for either of them. Although, at the time, I didn't think Trump would be this big of a cluster. I know better now. As far as strategically, my lack of a vote didn't help elect Trump. I'm in Colorado and Hillary won all the electoral votes here. Exactly the same for me. And if they held another election tomorrow I again wouldn't vote for Clinton or Trump. 1 Link to comment
deedsker Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 I don't think it's that easy to say it didn't help. To some degree we're all participants in this democracy. To me it was a CLEAR choice between Trump and Hillary. The general attitude of "I won't vote for either, they're both so bad" that permeated the entire country *helped* to bring Hillary down in states that shouldn't have been close.None of us can claim total separation from this attitude, which is why I felt it was worth pushing back against no matter what the state. National perception do not form in a vacuum, and however fair or unfair they were, they shouldn't have been in the same galaxy of rendering these two candidates indistinguishable.I understand this and can accept it. It is now obvious, and maybe it was for most back at election time, that Trump is/was worse than Hillary. But I still maintain that neither of them were fit to hold the office of POTUS. Sorry but I refuse to be forced/cajoled/harassed into voting for anyone who is less than acceptable for the position. Clearly one wouldve been better and more qualified but they still both fell short of what I feel is an acceptable standard. So you can blame me for Trump all you want, if you want, but the complete lack of any worthy candidate is mostly to blame IMO. The fact that the Trump administration is such an absolute train wreck sure does lend some validity to your POV but I'm just not going to play that game. And we don't need to rehash why you feel Hillary was worthy. I know that's how many feel and I also understand many are willing to vote based on the lesser of two evils. I just won't have my vote extorted that way. The solution is for at least one of the parties to nominate an acceptable human being. Maybe this is one of those situations where things had to get worse before they can begin to get better. I mean really, if Trump supporters don't start coming around to reality, this country is screwed anyway. I am right there with you. The voting system creates a two party conflict. A switch to single transferable votes would go a long way to fighting you are with me or against me politics of America. If someone has no options they want due to the system, how it that their personal fault? 1 Link to comment
NM11046 Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 Agreed - so let me take a step back, perhaps this is a dumb question but I need a refresher - why is it that we don't already do that? Single votes are the answer. Link to comment
Army_Allen Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 Agreed - so let me take a step back, perhaps this is a dumb question but I need a refresher - why is it that we don't already do that? Single votes are the answer. Because neither major party wants to see that. Also no other parties have the funding to prop up a candidate properly atm unfortunately. Link to comment
zoogs Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 Clearly one wouldve been better and more qualified but they still both fell short of what I feel is an acceptable standard. So you can blame me for Trump all you want, if you want, but the complete lack of any worthy candidate is mostly to blame IMO. The fact that the Trump administration is such an absolute train wreck sure does lend some validity to your POV but I'm just not going to play that game. I appreciate your reply. For me, anyway, it's not about individual blame. Rather it is about assessing how we make decisions collectively -- so that includes for example whether abstentions are truly zero impact or whether it's up to all of us to push back when called upon. So, hopefully, this has been a lesson learned for a generation ... although in the run-up to this year's elections, there were eerily prescient lamentations published by the cynics who stayed on the sidelines and watched as Nixon won. Trump, of course, is far less competent and surrounded by far shadier characters. So I'm not all that confident that we won't return to this theme, again and again over the years. To me, the solution is to push back against the idea of the honorable abstention. Your preferences and values are your own regardless of how you vote; a vote is an expression of outcome preference, not a blood oath or ringing endorsement. If we decline to use the strategic power to shape our nation's path -- a right granted to us by the Constitution -- then we have only but to lament when things don't automatically "happen" as they are "supposed" to. It takes active participation. Link to comment
zoogs Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 Additionally, I would posit that there's another urgent reason to eschew "honor" voting. It's good to hold our public administrators to high standards, but few are unimpeachable. We do not want politics to devolve into a game of convincing us that flawed men and women are in fact hero-gods. We're already far enough down that road. Irretrievably? One hopes not... The only natural outcome to this is that we will come to demand Great Leaders to rule instead of bureaucrats to steward. That's a dangerous circus to be hopping aboard. Exhibit A.... Link to comment
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