Russia

[RedDenver]

1 hour ago, Scarlet said:

I can't face palm the idiocy of this enough. 

 

Let's stop while a verified war criminal is reeling so that we can get some feels good about "peace" and allow said war criminal to reconstitute his forces for another assault on a sovereign democratic country.  Nevermind the billions we already spent helping to put the war criminal on rubber legs street.  

 

Then there's the timing of it.  

 

 

 

1 hour ago, TGHusker said:

Just as the Ukrainians are making gains.  Time to crush what Russia is doing and not give them a way of escape.   Terrible timing.  I wonder how many Russian bots were sending encouraging words to these Democrats much less to the GOPers who are already backing away.  

It's far more insane not to pursue peace talks. I know people are rooting for Ukraine, but there are still people being killed on both sides.

 

The West could very easily set the conditions before the talks even happen so as not to let Putin set the terms.

[TGHusker]

25 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

The West could very easily set the conditions before the talks even happen so as not to let Putin set the terms.

I hear you. Peace is better as long as the good guys can set the terms - including Russia financing the rebuild of Ukraine and not the West. 

[knapplc]

28 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

 

It's far more insane not to pursue peace talks. I know people are rooting for Ukraine, but there are still people being killed on both sides.

 

The West could very easily set the conditions before the talks even happen so as not to let Putin set the terms.

 

They've been having peace talks throughout the war. First one was in February, then six times in March, and ongoing since April, with meetings in May, September and October.

[RedDenver]

56 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

They've been having peace talks throughout the war. First one was in February, then six times in March, and ongoing since April, with meetings in May, September and October.

Yes, and I support continuing those talks. Obviously, we've learned from history not to appease authoritarians and invaders, but we've also learned that war comes with a tremendous price in many different ways.

[Scarlet]

 

[Scarlet]

2 hours ago, RedDenver said:

 

It's far more insane not to pursue peace talks. I know people are rooting for Ukraine, but there are still people being killed on both sides.

 

The West could very easily set the conditions before the talks even happen so as not to let Putin set the terms.

If the conditions are a full withdrawal of Ukraine and reparations for the damage Putin's regime has caused them fine. But Putin's not going to go for that.  He has no legal claim to anything else.  Allowing him to make nuclear threats and get away with it by ceding territory that is not Russia's sets a horrible precedent around the world.  Negotiating with a war criminal who has proven he will never honor the results of any negotiated truce and allowing him to regroup is incredibly naive and misguided.

[Scarlet]

 

[TGHusker]

31 minutes ago, Scarlet said:

 

That went well.  

[RedDenver]

23 minutes ago, Scarlet said:

If the conditions are a full withdrawal of Ukraine and reparations for the damage Putin's regime has caused them fine. But Putin's not going to go for that.  He has no legal claim to anything else.  Allowing him to make nuclear threats and get away with it by ceding territory that is not Russia's sets a horrible precedent around the world.  Negotiating with a war criminal who has proven he will never honor the results of any negotiated truce and allowing him to regroup is incredibly naive and misguided.

You're making tons of assumptions here. Life isn't perfect. While it's preferable to bring war criminals to justice, sometimes you have to negotiate with a war criminal to achieve greater peace. Simply deciding many more will die because of idealistic assumptions when you're not among those risking your life is far more naive and misguided IMO.

[Scarlet]

4 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

You're making tons of assumptions here. Life isn't perfect. While it's preferable to bring war criminals to justice, sometimes you have to negotiate with a war criminal to achieve greater peace. Simply deciding many more will die because of idealistic assumptions when you're not among those risking your life is far more naive and misguided IMO.

The Ukrainians risking their lives would beg to differ.  They know Putin and his intentions to wipe the Ukrainians off the face of the earth unless they subjugate better than you.

 

A cease fire is exactly what Putin wants.  Not because he's ready to negotiate a lasting peace.  Do you really believe that's the case?  He wants a cease fire because it will allow him to wage more war, with more deaths not less, as he's shown time and again he will break the cease fire as soon as it's to his advantage. 

 

Here's a thread that explains it better from a Ukrainian perspective.

 

 

[commando]

i think a ceasefire is in order when russia ceases occupying ukraine.

[RedDenver]

3 minutes ago, Scarlet said:

The Ukrainians risking their lives would beg to differ.  They know Putin and his intentions to wipe the Ukrainians off the face of the earth unless they subjugate better than you.

 

A cease fire is exactly what Putin wants.  Not because he's ready to negotiate a lasting peace.  Do you really believe that's the case?  He wants a cease fire because it will allow him to wage more war, with more deaths not less, as he's shown time and again he will break the cease fire as soon as it's to his advantage. 

 

Here's a thread that explains it better from a Ukrainian perspective.

 

 

Again a ton of assumptions here. Ukrainians are not a single block that agree on anything let alone something as complex as war and peace. You keep taking the default position that Putin will somehow get everything he wants in a peace deal. What if instead Ukraine gets everything they want? It'll be something in between and there's good reason to carefully consider what that will be and how to hold the sides accountable.

[Scarlet]

29 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

Again a ton of assumptions here. Ukrainians are not a single block that agree on anything let alone something as complex as war and peace. You keep taking the default position that Putin will somehow get everything he wants in a peace deal. What if instead Ukraine gets everything they want? It'll be something in between and there's good reason to carefully consider what that will be and how to hold the sides accountable.

Speaking of assumptions.  I never said Putin would get everything he wanted out of a peace deal.  Just that he would use any cease fire to his advantage and at some point  continue on his quest to subjugate the Ukrainian people.  It's a huge assumption to think he would honor any cease fire or peace deal considering his history.  You're making the grave mistake of assuming Putin thinks like the West in this situation.  

 

But you'll probably get to test your assumptions out.  Let's see where this ends up over the next year.  Appeasement hasn't had the greatest success story up until now.  Maybe it'll work this time 

 

 

[RedDenver]

16 minutes ago, Scarlet said:

Speaking of assumptions.  I never said Putin would get everything he wanted out of a peace deal. 

It's what you're implying. Somehow Putin will get an advantage on any cease fire no matter what:

16 minutes ago, Scarlet said:

Just that he would use any cease fire to his advantage and at some point  continue on his quest to subjugate the Ukrainian people.

 

16 minutes ago, Scarlet said:

  It's a huge assumption to think he would honor any cease fire or peace deal considering his history.  You're making the grave mistake of assuming Putin thinks like the West in this situation.

I'm not assuming Putin (or Ukraine for that matter) would honor anything. It's why I said there should be something to hold both sides accountable. I'm not making any assumptions about Putin or how he is thinking. I'm pushing back against your assertions that there's no good cease fire or peace that can be achieved and therefore no one should even try.

 

16 minutes ago, Scarlet said:

But you'll probably get to test your assumptions out.  Let's see where this ends up over the next year.  Appeasement hasn't had the greatest success story up until now.  Maybe it'll work this time 

I'm against appeasement as that almost certainly won't work. Putin and Russia doesn't have to be appeased for a cease fire or for longer peace. War isn't the only option besides appeasement.

[nic]

I didn't realize the squad wanted to negotiate a truce with Russia. Wash Post. 

 

Liberal Democrats withdraw letter to Biden that urged him to rethink Ukraine strategy (msn.com)