The Right to Carry a Gun

[knapplc]

2 hours ago, BigRedBuster said:

Nobody said all mentally ill people are going to be violent. 

 

The allegation is that it's not the guns that are to blame, or America's violent gun fetish, but mental health.

 

That is not the case, it has never been the case, and study after study has shown this - even the one an intentionally intellectually dishonest post claimed through a cherry-picked quote.

 

No country in the world that is comparable to America has gun violence remotely on the level we have.

 

Every country in the world has mentally handicapped people. America is not even tops among those diagnosed with mental disabilities per capita. If mental illness were remotely a factor in this debate, countries with more mentally handicapped people than America would have greater instances of gun violence than America.

 

That is not the case.

 

So the answer lies somewhere else. And it can be directly tied to the fact that America is one of three nations in the world that guarantees gun ownership in its constitution. And in America's strong-man gun fetish.

[BigRedBuster]

6 minutes ago, knapplc said:

The allegation is that it's not the guns that are to blame, or America's violent gun fetish, but mental health.

That’s not what I’ve been saying. 

[knapplc]

3 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

That’s not what I’ve been saying. 

 

Every time I say it's not mental health that's the issue, you demure.

 

You may understand how that's confusing in light of this quote.

[NUance]

On 1/5/2020 at 12:54 PM, knapplc said:

 

We're in good company.

 

Only 3 countries in the world protect the right to bear arms in their constitutions: the US, Mexico, and Guatemala

 

It's true that only three countries have the right to bear arms written in their constitutions.  But several dozen countries have laws allowing gun ownership.    Just to be clear.  

[BigRedBuster]

6 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

Every time I say it's not mental health that's the issue, you demure.

 

You may understand how that's confusing in light of this quote.

It’s literally not what I’ve been saying. 

[knapplc]

5 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

It’s literally not what I’ve been saying. 

 

So you're saying we've been quoting each other for hours because you agree that the gun death epidemic in America cannot be blamed on mental health issues, that mentally ill people exist in every country, but America is unique in this gun epidemic among First World nations, and that bringing up mental health in a discussion about the American gun epidemic is not productive.

 

 

[Redux]

29 minutes ago, knapplc said:

No country in the world that is comparable to America has gun violence remotely on the level we have.

 

Which countries are those?

[JJ Husker]

So it's perfectly natural and normal for a person in a country with easy access and a gun fetish to go shoot up a school? No other problems with that person. No other issues in that country. Just those one or two things, easy access and a gun fetish. Those are the only causes, end of story? Good luck with that. I'm not buying it.

[knapplc]

5 minutes ago, JJ Husker said:

So it's perfectly natural and normal for a person in a country with easy access and a gun fetish to go shoot up a school? No other problems with that person. No other issues in that country. Just those one or two things, easy access and a gun fetish. Those are the only causes, end of story? Good luck with that. I'm not buying it.

 

This straw man is not my argument.

[knapplc]

31 minutes ago, NUance said:

 

It's true that only three countries have the right to bear arms written in their constitutions.  But several dozen countries have laws allowing gun ownership.    Just to be clear.  

 

Agreed. The key difference is calling it a right, on the same level as liberty or freedom of speech or religion. That's where the Founding Fathers stepped too far.

 

Give them credit though. That was one of very few missteps they made in a document that's lived more than two hundred years, and they couldn't have reasonably been expected to have foreseen the gun climate as it stands today.

[JJ Husker]

8 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

This straw man is not my argument.

Please, please, please set my mind at ease and acknowledge that it is not normal behavior for a person to commit one of these mass shootings.

 

Yes, easy access makes it more likely and is responsible for the higher occurrence in this country as compared to other countries. I know this and I can acknowledge it. 

 

Im not saying it’s mental illness. I’m not blaming our country’s problem on mental illness. I’m simply saying that our laws and gun culture supply the environment that makes the occurrence here higher. But there are obviously other issues that cause people to want to kill a bunch of people.

[NUance]

6 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

Agreed. The key difference is calling it a right, on the same level as liberty or freedom of speech or religion. That's where the Founding Fathers stepped too far.

 

Give them credit though. That was one of very few missteps they made in a document that's lived more than two hundred years, and they couldn't have reasonably been expected to have foreseen the gun climate as it stands today.

 

I think the key point is that the anti-gun lobby uses this "three country" sound bite in a misleading manner:  It makes it sound as if America is about the only place where you can own guns.  In fact 175 of the 195 countries in the world have laws allowing gun ownership.  It's a right to own guns in those 175 countries.   Just to be clear.    

[Nebfanatic]

5 hours ago, knapplc said:

 

Agreed. The key difference is calling it a right, on the same level as liberty or freedom of speech or religion. That's where the Founding Fathers stepped too far.

To be fair, I don't think they did. I think it's our interpretation of what they wrote that goes too far on this subject. A well regulated militia is a far cry from what gun ownership is today.

[BigRedBuster]

7 hours ago, knapplc said:

 

So you're saying we've been quoting each other for hours because you agree that the gun death epidemic in America cannot be blamed on mental health issues, that mentally ill people exist in every country, but America is unique in this gun epidemic among First World nations, and that bringing up mental health in a discussion about the American gun epidemic is not productive.

 

 

I have said multiple times that their is something is seriously wrong with someone who commits mass shootings ALONG WITH way too easy of access to a mass supply of guns in this country. 
 

You conveniently leave out that last part. 

[knapplc]

7 hours ago, JJ Husker said:

Please, please, please set my mind at ease and acknowledge that it is not normal behavior for a person to commit one of these mass shootings.

 

It is not "normal behavior" but the conflation that I'm fighting against is that "not normal behavior" = a "mental health issue." I've been very clear on that.