Biden Foreign Policy

[BigRedBuster]

23 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

They literally have an entire coastline of border available.   At least until the ocean dries up.  

And, only about 10% comes from Israel.  So...what's the point?

[Archy1221]

1 hour ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

I guess my point is that Israel has made no secret of its willingness to prosecute Hamas in Gaza with extreme prejudice and (like you said) a willingness to accept civilian casualties, including denying every Palestinian water.  So it wouldn't be hard to believe they might be responsible for roughly 3,000 of those deaths, perhaps unapologetically so, although you seem to think if you can winnow that number down we would be angrier at Hamas than we already are. 

Not much of an issue with you except 2 minor points….

 

1) how do we whittle a number down to 3,000 when your starting number I questioned was 2,800? 
2) whittling the number down should have no bearing on how someone thinks about Hamas.  Either you believe that group should be annihilated or you don’t.   Really no room for nuance with that one.  

[Archy1221]

59 minutes ago, Lorewarn said:

This is true, and begs the question of whether Israel is a good country.

I believe the answer to be yes it is a good country smack dab in the middle of some pretty disgusting countries that would love to Israel wiped out. 
 

1 hour ago, Lorewarn said:

How hard do they try?

Is it fair to say That’s a pretty nebulous question with various factions each having their own standard for what try hard is  
 

 

[Archy1221]

1 hour ago, BigRedBuster said:

And, only about 10% comes from Israel.  So...what's the point?

That Gaza has on ocean coastline and desalinization plants are a thing and it gets billions of aid that could be put towards that technology instead of terror 

[Guy Chamberlin]

48 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

Not much of an issue with you except 2 minor points….

 

1) how do we whittle a number down to 3,000 when your starting number I questioned was 2,800? 
2) whittling the number down should have no bearing on how someone thinks about Hamas.  Either you believe that group should be annihilated or you don’t.   Really no room for nuance with that one.  

 

1) It should be no surprise that the number has been growing since the links from a couple days ago, and the inexact accounting has many sources simply rounding to 3,000. How does this change the larger point?

 

2) Uhm, I believe you introduced the concept by questioning the 2,800 number and suggesting Hamas be given responsibility for some or many of those deaths. This was in regards to media credibility, as you may recall, not our feelings about Hamas or Israel.  

[Guy Chamberlin]

30 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

That Gaza has on ocean coastline and desalinization plants are a thing and it gets billions of aid that could be put towards that technology instead of terror 

 

I'm going to take a wild guess that much of that aid passes through hands that divert it from its given purpose. 

 

Which, to be honest, happens in a lot of countries, including ours. 

[Archy1221]

6 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

2) Uhm, I believe you introduced the concept by questioning the 2,800 number and suggesting Hamas be given responsibility for some or many of those deaths. This was in regards to media credibility, as you may recall, not our feelings about Hamas or Israel.  

It’s unquestionable by those that accept the reality of the situation that Hamas is responsible for some deaths in Gaza.  This is fact, not feelings by anyone.  I asked is it some, many or most (50%plus 1) of that 2,800 number because you presented is as Israeli sponsored deaths.   
 

Hell, it it were 15 years ago, Israel would still get blamed for the hospital situation.  Luckily for them, technology has evolved to root out those lies.   So forgive me for questioning the Israel is responsible for 2,800 civilian casualties statement as fact.  

[Archy1221]

4 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

I'm going to take a wild guess that much of that aid passes through hands that divert it from its given purpose.

Exactly, so why is Israel responsible for providing water and electricity to an area it doesn’t govern? Why isn’t it incumbent on the elected leadership of Gaza to provide those services independent of the country of Israel that they want to destroy 

[Lorewarn]

16 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

Hell, it it were 15 years ago, Israel would still get blamed for the hospital situation.  Luckily for them, technology has evolved to root out those lies. 

 

 

News outlets didn't have the ability to get quotes from the IDF or obtain video recordings in 2008?

[BigRedBuster]

1 hour ago, Archy1221 said:

That Gaza has on ocean coastline and desalinization plants are a thing and it gets billions of aid that could be put towards that technology instead of terror 

Valid point. 
 

But, can you control what the us government does?  And we have way more control with voting than they do. 
 

The actual members of Hamas is a small minority and they hold all the power. They are also supported by people who don’t care about the average Palestinians. Fact is, there are millions of people there with no power over their own lives because of both Hamas and Israel. That breeds anger. 
 

That’s what we the rest of the world has to figure out how to fix. 
 

The point is, just saying, “they need to be different” isn’t the answer. We’ve tried that for decades and here we are. 

[BigRedBuster]

33 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

Exactly, so why is Israel responsible for providing water and electricity to an area it doesn’t govern? Why isn’t it incumbent on the elected leadership of Gaza to provide those services independent of the country of Israel that they want to destroy 

Maybe, we need to know why Israel controls so much of their electricity?  Do they have the resources to produce it themselves, if so, why haven’t they? Is Israel controlling that so thry continue to have control over Palestine?

[BigRedBuster]

Yes. 
 

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

9 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

It’s unquestionable by those that accept the reality of the situation that Hamas is responsible for some deaths in Gaza.  This is fact, not feelings by anyone.  I asked is it some, many or most (50%plus 1) of that 2,800 number because you presented is as Israeli sponsored deaths.   
 

Hell, it it were 15 years ago, Israel would still get blamed for the hospital situation.  Luckily for them, technology has evolved to root out those lies.   So forgive me for questioning the Israel is responsible for 2,800 civilian casualties statement as fact.  

 

No, you asked me what legitimate news sources were citing that number, and I gave them to you. You declined to give me the legitimate news source you were willing to trust.

 

For the record, a lot of the Gaza numbers come from Palestinian health authorities, and they could certainly be elevated. But to your point, does the exact number change how you should feel about women and children caught in the middle?

 

And do you honestly believe Israel is exempt from judgement in its handling of many, many things in this ongoing conflict? 

[LumberJackSker]

2 hours ago, Archy1221 said:

Exactly, so why is Israel responsible for providing water and electricity to an area it doesn’t govern? Why isn’t it incumbent on the elected leadership of Gaza to provide those services independent of the country of Israel that they want to destroy 

I can't imagine there are very many instances in human history where while 2 countries were at war one of the sides continued to supply the other with all its electricity, food, water and medicine. 

[teachercd]

20 minutes ago, LumberJackSker said:

I can't imagine there are very many instances in human history where while 2 countries were at war one of the sides continued to supply the other with all its electricity, food, water and medicine. 

Right?  Pretty much rule 1 to winning is cutting off supplies if you can.