Biden Foreign Policy

[Lorewarn]

5 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

Yes....what I feel has happened though, is when the killing has stopped in the past, the rest of the world just assumes everything is hunky dory and forgets part B2.  The part that makes people uncomfortable about that is, the world needs to put pressure on Israel to make it happen.  Then, you're viewed as "not supporting Israel."

 

 

Bingo. Both sides of this conflict have very convincing and justified narratives for themselves in regards to being the victims and retaliating, but only one side has the blessing of the west and the massively disproportionate military might that results in a temporary thin veneer of 'peace' but really is just a volcano ready to erupt again any time.

[Dr. Strangelove]

1 hour ago, BigRedBuster said:

This is probably the best and most reasonable thing he could possibly say given the circumstances. 

 

1 hour ago, Undone said:

The dilemma for our foreign policy is that if we don't have aircraft carriers on ready and flex at list a bit, Iran & Lebanon might be emboldened to go "alright it's time to finally take Israel out, the U.S. is actually going to sit this one out."

 

But I want absolutely no involvement in this thing. None. This is a powder keg ready to explode.

I agree. At the end of the day, I think the United States' response is highly competent and we're trying to defuse the situation. At the same time, we're also trying to prepare for the worst outcomes.

 

At the end of the day, let's just be happy the Trump Administration isn't handling this.

[Guy Chamberlin]

3 hours ago, Archy1221 said:

That doesn’t answer my question.  What legitimate source says Israeli rockets are responsible for 2800 deaths.  It’s a known fact the dips#!ts known as Hamas launch rockets and they routinely fail to cross the border (20%failure rate by some accounts).   What are the chances some, many, most??? Of those are because of the dips#!t crew? 

 

The question isn't necessarily about rocket attacks, it's about Palestinian deaths from Israeli retaliation. You could Google it yourself and see the numbers from the Wall Street Journal, AP and others. They also confirm a large percentage of dead women and children, suggesting these aren't exactly pinpointing Hamas, and Israel has always been willing to accept civilian casualties. Hamas is keenly aware that many Palestinians hate and/or resent local Hamas rule, but if Israeli bombs start killing them, it helps unite the larger Arab world against Israel and the West.  That's how terrorists get influence over much larger adversaries. It's also why people advocate not treating every Palestinian as a Hamas terrorist, including many Israelis who have warned about Netanyahu's ambitions since day one. 

 

Are you suggesting that Israeli retaliation hasn't been transparent in its goals and actions, which many consider justified, and that we should go with your unvetted gut feeling that many if not most Palestinian deaths can be directly blamed on Hamas blowing them up? 

 

To put it another way, who is your favorite legitimate source?

 

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/israel-hamas-war-gaza-strip/card/latest-death-toll-in-israel-and-gaza-eoVPFI8WcXN0mzIR73pY

 

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-war-refugees-6cf0ff04e513ecec12cf9152656ac1b6

 

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/17/1206601875/some-palestinian-americans-say-theyre-afraid-to-mourn-their-loved-ones-out-loud

 

 

 

 

 

Bottom line: a brutal but surgical removal of Hamas, backed by a modicum of respect for Palestinians, would go a long way towards something less violent and slightly more lasting. 

 

 U.S./Biden/Blinken announcing full support of Israel in the wake of the horrific Hamas attack, then using its credibility to talk Israel out of things like shutting off water to all Palestinians, is the smart course of action. 

[Lorewarn]

6 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

Hamas is keenly aware that many Palestinians hate and/or resent local Hamas rule, but if Israeli bombs start killing them, it helps unite the larger Arab world against Israel and the West.  

 

 

In this sense, Hamas is not accurately characterized as a bunch of dips#!ts but more accurately as a remarkably cruel but savvy operation.

 

The United States learned well enough after 9/11 that in non-conventional warfare (when a small force attacks a big force), the overreaction of the big force actually helps the small force. Which was their goal all along, and after we foolishly took the bait we at least finally kind of sort of learned well enough to add it into our Law of War manual.

[ZRod]

2 hours ago, nic said:

Absolutely a chance Hamas hit the hospital. It’s possibly they did it on purpose. Hopefully someone has footage and the world will know.

 

Edit: I didn’t know Biden said this.

 

President Biden revealed Wednesday that data he has seen from the U.S. Department of Defense has made him sure that Israel is not to blame for a blast at a hospital in the Gaza Strip that has left hundreds of people dead. 

Biden said earlier that the explosion that rocked the al-Ahli Baptist Hospital in Gaza City on Tuesday -- which Hamas is claiming was the result of an Israeli airstrike – was "done by the other team." 

When asked later Wednesday what made him so sure about that, Biden said "The data I was shown by my defense department." 

There's a few videos out there that make it look like a rocket malfunctioned mid flight, and the debris is what hit the hospital. More than likely it was an accident.

[Guy Chamberlin]

2 minutes ago, Lorewarn said:

 

 

In this sense, Hamas is not accurately characterized as a bunch of dips#!ts but more accurately as a remarkably cruel but savvy operation.

 

The United States learned well enough after 9/11 that in non-conventional warfare (when a small force attacks a big force), the overreaction of the big force actually helps the small force. Which was their goal all along, and after we foolishly took the bait we at least finally kind of sort of learned well enough to add it into our Law of War manual.

 

I'm always curious about the Hamas relationship with Iran, which does not consider itself an Arab state and typically looks down on its poorer Mideast relations. I guess it's Iran's hatred of Israel, and Hamas being happy to accept free military aid in return for being their proxy. But they remain very different entities, and I'm not sure Hamas presents a threat without Iran and other proxy players. 

 

I think the U.S. point of view in Isreal/Palestine is always shadowed by guesswork about Iran's motives and willingness to engage. 

[DevoHusker]

 

 

[Archy1221]

1 hour ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

The question isn't necessarily about rocket attacks, it's about Palestinian deaths from Israeli retaliation. You could Google it yourself and see the numbers from the Wall Street Journal, AP and others. They also confirm a large percentage of dead women and children, suggesting these aren't exactly pinpointing Hamas, and Israel has always been willing to accept civilian casualties.

Well ya it kinda is about rocket attacks too considering a fair amount of Hamas rockets NEVER reach Israel.  Meaning they land in Gaza, meaning they could be responsible for deaths in Gaza just like the failed rocket from a day ago near the hospital.   
 

Every country in the history of war has always been willing to accept civilian deaths including our country.   The good countries try and minimize those casualties as much as possible.   
 

1 hour ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

Hamas is keenly aware that many Palestinians hate and/or resent local Hamas rule, but if Israeli bombs start killing them, it helps unite the larger Arab world against Israel and the West.  That's how terrorists get influence over much larger adversaries. It's also why people advocate not treating every Palestinian as a Hamas terrorist, including many Israelis who have warned about Netanyahu's ambitions since day one. 

This is also why Hamas embeds their military operations into the civilian population, knowing no matter hard Israel tries to avoid civilian casualties, they can’t avoid them all and hit the intended targets.  Not often mentioned by the Palestine supporters or/and the both Hamas and Israel side suck groups.  

[Archy1221]

1 hour ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

Are you suggesting that Israeli retaliation hasn't been transparent in its goals and actions

To get rid of Hamas and have Israel recognized?  I’ve posted that three or four times.  
 

1 hour ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

we should go with your unvetted gut feeling that many if not most Palestinian deaths can be directly blamed on Hamas blowing them up? 

You may want to read the post you responded as it didn’t say my gut feeling was “many if not most”.  I asked, given that Dips#!t rockets don’t always cross into Israel what are they chances they cause “some, many, most”.  
 

some would be a few.  

many would be more than a few/less than most

 

most is 50% plus 1

 

BTW…it’s not unvetted about the Hamas rocket issue.  

[Archy1221]

1 hour ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

, then using its credibility to talk Israel out of things like shutting off water to all Palestinians, is the smart course of action. 

No doubt.   
 

Why hasn’t Gaza used its billions upon billions of aid to build its own sufficient water source again?  It’s not like it all went to humanitarian aid 

[BigRedBuster]

8 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

No doubt.   
 

Why hasn’t Gaza used its billions upon billions of aid to build its own sufficient water source again?  It’s not like it all went to humanitarian aid 

Did Israel not allow them to? 

 

Do they have the water resource available to them to supply that many people on their land?

[nic]

1 hour ago, ZRod said:

There's a few videos out there that make it look like a rocket malfunctioned mid flight, and the debris is what hit the hospital. More than likely it was an accident.

Here is an article from CNN. IDF is saying the damage is not from an Ariel attack and they have audio of Hamas fighters discussing debris from a rocket launch hitting near the hospital. I suspect evidence will not matter in the Arab world.

 

https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-news-hamas-war-10-18-23/h_2b0ca738700446dc5c8615090e1f3331

Israel's military claims lack of structural damage at Gaza hospital rules out airstrikes

[Archy1221]

18 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

Did Israel not allow them to? 

 

Do they have the water resource available to them to supply that many people on their land?

They literally have an entire coastline of border available.   At least until the ocean dries up.  

[Guy Chamberlin]

35 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

Well ya it kinda is about rocket attacks too considering a fair amount of Hamas rockets NEVER reach Israel.  Meaning they land in Gaza, meaning they could be responsible for deaths in Gaza just like the failed rocket from a day ago near the hospital.   
 

Every country in the history of war has always been willing to accept civilian deaths including our country.   The good countries try and minimize those casualties as much as possible.   
 

This is also why Hamas embeds their military operations into the civilian population, knowing no matter hard Israel tries to avoid civilian casualties, they can’t avoid them all and hit the intended targets.  Not often mentioned by the Palestine supporters or/and the both Hamas and Israel side suck groups.  

 

I guess my point is that Israel has made no secret of its willingness to prosecute Hamas in Gaza with extreme prejudice and (like you said) a willingness to accept civilian casualties, including denying every Palestinian water.  So it wouldn't be hard to believe they might be responsible for roughly 3,000 of those deaths, perhaps unapologetically so, although you seem to think if you can winnow that number down we would be angrier at Hamas than we already are. 

 

There is definitely a side in this debate that sees Israel as an imperialist power and tries really hard to distract from Hamas in the name of supporting Palestine, but most people know Hamas as miserable f#&%heads willing to sacrifice their own people, and that includes a significant portion of Palestinians historically treated as collateral damage by every side. 

[Lorewarn]

55 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

Every country in the history of war has always been willing to accept civilian deaths including our country.   The good countries try and minimize those casualties as much as possible. 

 

This is true, and begs the question of whether Israel is a good country.

 

 

55 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

knowing no matter hard Israel tries to avoid civilian casualties

 

 

How hard do they try?

 

 

55 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

This is also why Hamas embeds their military operations into the civilian population

 

 

Absolutely and it's horrendous. If there's any side to take it's the side of innocent civilians being hurt, killed, displaced, and put in a position to have no power to do anything other than hopefully survive. That is very much an anti-Hamas side.