Christ in Christmas

[carlfense]

I just have a couple questions before I continue. Do you consider yourself a christian? Are you proud of your Iroquois heritage?

1. Not anymore.

2. Sure! Also proud of my Swedish heritage.

 

Ok then you'll probably understand where I'm coming from, and *** spoiler alert, if you consider yourself a devout christian, you should stop reading now ***...

 

I despise organized religion and even more so when it's pushed upon you. Centuries ago, christians forced their beliefs down my ancestors throats, and I get nauseous whenever I see any american indian affiliating themselves with any christian organization. Years ago, my grandfather, who was a holy man and respected elder, was belittled by a catholic priest who I was talking to because I wanted to marry a nice catholic girl. I promptly grabbed him by the collar, calling him a c*cksucker, and giving him 3 seconds to apologize before I pounded his skull into his desk.

 

In short, organized religion, moreover christianity, can eat a bag of sh*t, especially if you push it on me.

 

 

I'm sorry you've been hurt and legitimately wronged by Christians.

 

But regardless of what you have faith or believe in, belittling only begets more belittlement. Hate begets hate. Pride begets pride. Love begets love. As a Christian I am not superior to any other person, and I am only capable of love because Jesus first loved me, but I'm still a mess, and if you don't treat me with love there is just as good of a chance that I will respond in kind.

Spoken like a real Christian. +1

[walksalone]

I just have a couple questions before I continue. Do you consider yourself a christian? Are you proud of your Iroquois heritage?

1. Not anymore.

2. Sure! Also proud of my Swedish heritage.

 

Ok then you'll probably understand where I'm coming from, and *** spoiler alert, if you consider yourself a devout christian, you should stop reading now ***...

 

I despise organized religion and even more so when it's pushed upon you. Centuries ago, christians forced their beliefs down my ancestors throats, and I get nauseous whenever I see any american indian affiliating themselves with any christian organization. Years ago, my grandfather, who was a holy man and respected elder, was belittled by a catholic priest who I was talking to because I wanted to marry a nice catholic girl. I promptly grabbed him by the collar, calling him a c*cksucker, and giving him 3 seconds to apologize before I pounded his skull into his desk.

 

In short, organized religion, moreover christianity, can eat a bag of sh*t, especially if you push it on me.

 

 

I'm sorry you've been hurt and legitimately wronged by Christians.

 

But regardless of what you have faith or believe in, belittling only begets more belittlement. Hate begets hate. Pride begets pride. Love begets love. As a Christian I am not superior to any other person, and I am only capable of love because Jesus first loved me, but I'm still a mess, and if you don't treat me with love there is just as good of a chance that I will respond in kind.

 

LL, I should have also added this. If religion helps you get through your day, then awesome. But the minute you start pushing that down on me, is when we'll have an issue.

[QMany]

Excuse my ignorance, when was Jesus really born?

[husker_99]

I just have a couple questions before I continue. Do you consider yourself a christian? Are you proud of your Iroquois heritage?

1. Not anymore.

2. Sure! Also proud of my Swedish heritage.

 

Ok then you'll probably understand where I'm coming from, and *** spoiler alert, if you consider yourself a devout christian, you should stop reading now ***...

 

I despise organized religion and even more so when it's pushed upon you. Centuries ago, christians forced their beliefs down my ancestors throats, and I get nauseous whenever I see any american indian affiliating themselves with any christian organization. Years ago, my grandfather, who was a holy man and respected elder, was belittled by a catholic priest who I was talking to because I wanted to marry a nice catholic girl. I promptly grabbed him by the collar, calling him a c*cksucker, and giving him 3 seconds to apologize before I pounded his skull into his desk.

 

In short, organized religion, moreover christianity, can eat a bag of sh*t, especially if you push it on me.

sounds like you have anger issues might want to setup a talk with a therapist about that.

[walksalone]

I just have a couple questions before I continue. Do you consider yourself a christian? Are you proud of your Iroquois heritage?

1. Not anymore.

2. Sure! Also proud of my Swedish heritage.

 

Ok then you'll probably understand where I'm coming from, and *** spoiler alert, if you consider yourself a devout christian, you should stop reading now ***...

 

I despise organized religion and even more so when it's pushed upon you. Centuries ago, christians forced their beliefs down my ancestors throats, and I get nauseous whenever I see any american indian affiliating themselves with any christian organization. Years ago, my grandfather, who was a holy man and respected elder, was belittled by a catholic priest who I was talking to because I wanted to marry a nice catholic girl. I promptly grabbed him by the collar, calling him a c*cksucker, and giving him 3 seconds to apologize before I pounded his skull into his desk.

 

In short, organized religion, moreover christianity, can eat a bag of sh*t, especially if you push it on me.

sounds like you have anger issues might want to setup a talk with a therapist about that.

 

[MLB 51]

"In Christianity neither morality nor religion come into contact with reality at any point."

 

Friedrich Nietzsche

[Landlord]

Excuse my ignorance, when was Jesus really born?

 

 

There's no unanimous agreement, but going off of contextual clues in Luke it's most likely that it was sometime around May-June, but certainly during a warmer time of the year than December.

[NUance]

Excuse my ignorance, when was Jesus really born?

 

 

There's no unanimous agreement, but going off of contextual clues in Luke it's most likely that it was sometime around May-June, but certainly during a warmer time of the year than December.

It seems like scholars could pin that down. Wasn't the Bethlehem trip during some tax collection or census thing? Or did that occur for a whole season or year?

[knapplc]

The actual birth occurred when the shepherds had their flocks in the field, which did not happen in the cooler month of December. They would be penned up for winter then, such as winter was in the Levant at the time. So Landlord's May/June is what the current scholarship largely agrees with. The most certain thing is, it wasn't anywhere near December 25th.

 

NUance asks a good question - The Biblical account of the birth says that Joseph took the pregnant Mary to Bethlehem, the town of his birth, from Nazareth where he worked as a carpenter, to be registered in the census. This occurred "when Quirinius was the governor of Syria," as you'll hear recited in a child's quavering alto in just about any Christmas pageant. I was lucky enough to recite this passage when I was a child, and most still have it memorized.

 

Quirinius' census was, according to Roman records, conducted in 6 or 7 AD.

 

However, the Bible also tells us Jesus was born, and visited by the Magi, during the reign of Herod. The Magi came to Jerusalem and began asking about the child king whose birth they had seen in the stars (a tacit endorsement of astrology in the Bible, interestingly). When Herod heard them asking about this boy king he told them to find the boy and return to tell Herod where he was, stating that he wanted to worship the boy also.

 

The Magi, according to the Bible, did not return to Herod, so Herod ordered his men to murder all of the boys aged two years old and younger, because clearly Herod did not want to have some usurper come and take over his throne. Herod was a pretty ugly character, having murdered many of his own family, and was ousted by the Romans and replaced by their own direct governors. Prior to Herod's ugliness (and some unrelated civil unrest - long story) the Romans had been content to allow the locals to rule themselves as long as they paid their taxes. When the Levant (Syria, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon) proved that they would not submit to Rome's yolk willingly, Rome sent the legions and smashed down any unrest.

 

Anyway. When Herod instituted his pogrom of murder against the children in and around Bethlehem, Joseph was warned by an angel to take Mary and their child to Egypt, where they stayed until Herod's death.

 

 

So we have some time frames to work with here. Herod's pogrom was against children aged two years and younger. So Jesus' birth would have occurred within two years of this mass murder of young boys. Presuming Herod was exhibiting an abundance of caution, and allowing for normal travel times of that era, Jesus was most likely born within a year of that pogrom.

 

However, Luke tells us that Jesus was born "when Quirinius was the governor of Syria," and now we start having problems.

 

Rome didn't take direct authoritative control over the Levant until they utterly had to. Dispatching legions to the hinterlands of the empire was expensive and they were needed elsewhere, so they didn't do it unless they had no choice. The Levant was brought under the umbrella of the Roman Empire by Pompey (that Pompey, the guy who fought Julius Caesar) after several uprisings and refusals to pay taxes (again, long story). It remained a vassal state, which was self-ruled but required to pay taxes, through the reign of Herod the Great, the Herod of the Jesus story.

 

Herod died around 4 BC, and his death is pretty well documented by Roman historians. Herod's kingdom was split up amongst his surviving sons by the Romans, but then around 6 or 7 AD, around ten years after Herod's death, Rome took direct control because the Semitic peoples of that region were a troublesome and cantankerous lot - which should sound familiar because they still are today.

 

Quirinius was the first governor of Syria sent by the Romans, and one of his first orders of business was to conduct the census so he knew who he had in his area and what kind of taxes he could collect. It's important to note that the Romans viewed the eastern Mediterranean area, including Egypt, the Levant and modern-day Turkey, as one giant cash cow. Asia Minor was a tremendously important hub of trade from three continents, and all that trade had to be taxed. So the Romans got beau-coup bucks from this area, and couldn't allow something like the pesky natives to interrupt their income source.

 

Notably, these trade routes are a major reason why David and Solomon were able to create such a powerful and prosperous nation so quickly after David threw off the Philistine yoke - the coastal trade routes between Egypt, Babylon and what is now Turkey has always been full of cash.

 

So. You've got one Biblical account that tells you that Jesus was born during the census of Quirinius, and the Romans date that pretty accurately. Further, it tells us that Jesus was born during the reign of Herod, and again we have pretty accurate dating of both Herod's reign and his death.

 

Herod's reign ended prior to 4 BC.

 

Quirinius took over governorship of the area and conducted his census in or around 6~7 AD.

 

So Jesus was born sometime in that ten to twelve year span.

[Junior]

Interesting rundown. So the Bible doesn't even know when Jesus was born...

[MLB 51]

Interesting rundown. So the Bible doesn't even know when Jesus was born...

"It's a Saturnalia Miracle."

[MLB 51]

[husker_99]

of course it's hard to track down the birth date of Jesus. The New Testament wasn't written that it actually happened. It's all fake to control the masses who couldn't read. As long as you understand most if not all characters are fiction. I mean why do you think there isn't known that much about them in the first place!