Islam's "Grey Zone"

[NM11046]

Coincidentally listened to this last night and opened this thread this morning.

 

Counters a lot of what has been said in this thread.

 

Very interesting perspective - it does make sense that those (I speak for myself) of us fighting that "it's not all muslims" are also the ones who have the perspective that the over the top christians (Westboro Baptists, active pro lifers) are not reflective of the entire christian population. But for those who believe in the christian bible explicitly word for word it is an easy leap for them to think that other religions do the same. What gets lost is that there is good and bad in the bible, just like there is good and bad in the Koran. Folks seem to forget that christians don't exactly take it word for word - same goes for muslims.

[funhusker]

There is a lot to touch on from that video. So I'm just going to go for a few...

 

1. No one, not even Obama, has said ISIS is not made up of people claiming to be Muslims. What he, and others, have said is that their version of Islaam has no place in this world and is misrepresentative of the 100's of millions of Muslims that make up the rest of the Muslim population.

 

2. If the Quran truly teaches violence in every context, why do 85% (number is from the video) of Muslims worldwide believe Islaam promotes peace?

 

3. The man's analogy about "bald white men" was a fun thought experiment. If his scenario is true, should constitutional rights be stripped from all bald white men? Should they be detained and kicked off planes for doing math? Should they have their homes vandalized because of their hair style? I thought it was funny how he added the "swastika" tattoo qualifier in the middle; there is a big difference between a bald man in a suit and tie, and a bald man wearing a wife beater to show off his Nazi tattoos. Same goes for Islam, a big difference between the Muslim buying baseball tickets online and a Muslim using Google to make bombs: but people will just see a "brown guy on a laptop" and not even take the time to ask him what he's working on. And yes, I do believe if there was a depressed bald white man with no friends and looking to find a group of people who will make him feel "validated" versus a group of people who make him feel worthless and evil. Not a very big percentage at all, but some. ISIS isn't trying to recruit every Muslim child, they are recruiting the "misplaced" and "vulnerable". They are recruiting the people in the "grey zone" mentioned in the OP.

[Scratchtown]

I see an interesting time ahead. A continued time of the "inclusive" left including and accommodating for everyone. Well not 'everyone'. What they don't realize is that it is impossible to accommodate everyone because while accommodating for one, you shun another.

 

We have brains. Brains with opinions. Opinions are what make people strong. We always tell our kids, in the sports realm, old adages and quotes talking about "Don't be a follower". When it comes to drugs, sports, social ideology, we never tell students to follow the crowd. If you want to be great you have to be different. So they grow up, forming opinions, doing there thing to be successful. Standing up for what they believe.

 

What we don't tell them is later in life when they become adults. Everything changes. You better follow along with society because if you don't, you will be looked at as an anomaly. An outcast. A nutjob.

 

Or. Maybe they just shouldn't join Huskerboard or whatever other online community they would happen to choose.

[It'sNotAFakeID]

I see an interesting time ahead. A continued time of the "inclusive" left including and accommodating for everyone. Well not 'everyone'. What they don't realize is that it is impossible to accommodate everyone because while accommodating for one, you shun another.

 

We have brains. Brains with opinions. Opinions are what make people strong. We always tell our kids, in the sports realm, old adages and quotes talking about "Don't be a follower". When it comes to drugs, sports, social ideology, we never tell students to follow the crowd. If you want to be great you have to be different. So they grow up, forming opinions, doing there thing to be successful. Standing up for what they believe.

 

What we don't tell them is later in life when they become adults. Everything changes. You better follow along with society because if you don't, you will be looked at as an anomaly. An outcast. A nutjob.

 

Or. Maybe they just shouldn't join Huskerboard or whatever other online community they would happen to choose.

 

Is there something wrong with trying to respect the rights of every human being?

[Judoka]

It just feels like there is going to be a country/countries that will get sick of this behavior occurring and take extreme measures to curtail Muslim terrorists.

[Scratchtown]

 

I see an interesting time ahead. A continued time of the "inclusive" left including and accommodating for everyone. Well not 'everyone'. What they don't realize is that it is impossible to accommodate everyone because while accommodating for one, you shun another.

 

We have brains. Brains with opinions. Opinions are what make people strong. We always tell our kids, in the sports realm, old adages and quotes talking about "Don't be a follower". When it comes to drugs, sports, social ideology, we never tell students to follow the crowd. If you want to be great you have to be different. So they grow up, forming opinions, doing there thing to be successful. Standing up for what they believe.

 

What we don't tell them is later in life when they become adults. Everything changes. You better follow along with society because if you don't, you will be looked at as an anomaly. An outcast. A nutjob.

 

Or. Maybe they just shouldn't join Huskerboard or whatever other online community they would happen to choose.

 

Is there something wrong with trying to respect the rights of every human being?

 

 

Where did I say it was?

[Scratchtown]

This is a problem.

 

http://www.redflagnews.com/headlines-2016/video-speaker-at-orlando-mosque-says-gays-must-die-spread-this-everywhere

 

[The Dude]

There is a lot to touch on from that video. So I'm just going to go for a few...

 

1. No one, not even Obama, has said ISIS is not made up of people claiming to be Muslims. What he, and others, have said is that their version of Islaam has no place in this world and is misrepresentative of the 100's of millions of Muslims that make up the rest of the Muslim population.

 

2. If the Quran truly teaches violence in every context, why do 85% (number is from the video) of Muslims worldwide believe Islaam promotes peace?

 

3. The man's analogy about "bald white men" was a fun thought experiment. If his scenario is true, should constitutional rights be stripped from all bald white men? Should they be detained and kicked off planes for doing math? Should they have their homes vandalized because of their hair style? I thought it was funny how he added the "swastika" tattoo qualifier in the middle; there is a big difference between a bald man in a suit and tie, and a bald man wearing a wife beater to show off his Nazi tattoos. Same goes for Islam, a big difference between the Muslim buying baseball tickets online and a Muslim using Google to make bombs: but people will just see a "brown guy on a laptop" and not even take the time to ask him what he's working on. And yes, I do believe if there was a depressed bald white man with no friends and looking to find a group of people who will make him feel "validated" versus a group of people who make him feel worthless and evil. Not a very big percentage at all, but some. ISIS isn't trying to recruit every Muslim child, they are recruiting the "misplaced" and "vulnerable". They are recruiting the people in the "grey zone" mentioned in the OP.

It seems you're arguing against points he didn't make and ignoring points he did. I'd recommend listening again.

[funhusker]

Yes, it is a problem. However, not just a Muslim problem.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIlPdyrvEfw

[funhusker]

 

There is a lot to touch on from that video. So I'm just going to go for a few...

 

1. No one, not even Obama, has said ISIS is not made up of people claiming to be Muslims. What he, and others, have said is that their version of Islaam has no place in this world and is misrepresentative of the 100's of millions of Muslims that make up the rest of the Muslim population.

 

In the first couple minutes he talks about how Mohammed lived his live and to follow "his lead" we get something similar to ISIS.

 

2. If the Quran truly teaches violence in every context, why do 85% (number is from the video) of Muslims worldwide believe Islaam promotes peace?

 

Goes with #1 I guess.

 

3. The man's analogy about "bald white men" was a fun thought experiment. If his scenario is true, should constitutional rights be stripped from all bald white men? Should they be detained and kicked off planes for doing math? Should they have their homes vandalized because of their hair style? I thought it was funny how he added the "swastika" tattoo qualifier in the middle; there is a big difference between a bald man in a suit and tie, and a bald man wearing a wife beater to show off his Nazi tattoos. Same goes for Islam, a big difference between the Muslim buying baseball tickets online and a Muslim using Google to make bombs: but people will just see a "brown guy on a laptop" and not even take the time to ask him what he's working on. And yes, I do believe if there was a depressed bald white man with no friends and looking to find a group of people who will make him feel "validated" versus a group of people who make him feel worthless and evil. Not a very big percentage at all, but some. ISIS isn't trying to recruit every Muslim child, they are recruiting the "misplaced" and "vulnerable". They are recruiting the people in the "grey zone" mentioned in the OP.

This was his main point, and I disagree. He tries to explain why it is okay to be suspicious about all white bald men, it's human nature. Like I've said before, I know they are Muslim, You can call it "Radical Islaamic Terrorism", but throwing a fit when people don't is a problem. You can call them Skinheads, Neo-Nazis, or whatever. But when you say people aren't recognizing the problem because they aren't calling them "bald, white-guy, Neo-nazis, it can alienate all bald white guys. The Islaam part of the words "radical Islaamic terrorst" isn't the problem people are facing. It's the "radical" and "terrorist" parts that require the focus.

 

It seems you're arguing against points he didn't make and ignoring points he did. I'd recommend listening again.

 

I listened 3 times.

[zoogs]

ISIS is the du jour of many things terrible. Let's not pretend that there aren't more distinctly American flavors, though. The U.S. has its own rich history of LGBT murders on the heel of anti-gay rhetoric from camps Christian and otherwise. Like this one here:

 

 

• Ronald Gay entered a gay bar in Roanoke, Virginia on September 22, 2000 and opened fire on the patrons, killing Danny Overstreet, 43 years old, and severely injuring six others. Ronald said he was angry over what his name now meant, and deeply upset that three of his sons had changed their surname. He claimed that he had been told by God to find and kill lesbians and gay men, describing himself as a "Christian Soldier working for my Lord;" Gay testified in court that "he wished he could have killed more f**s," before several of the shooting victims as well as Danny Overstreet's family and friends.

And how about this one:

 

• Carl Joseph Walker-Hoover, an 11-year-old child in Springfield, Massachusetts, hanged himself with an extension cord on April 6, 2009, after being bullied all school year by peers who said "he acted feminine" and was gay.^[165]

 

The entire history of anti-gay rhetoric is horrible, comprising many people who probably weren't about to go murder but who shouldn't escape culpability for the weight of their hate, as in the above. We can also all agree that any act of violence or hate crime is awful, and can acknowledge the clear sources of radicalization, from these ISIS nuts to crazed white supremacists of whom Dylan Roof is merely the latest (I think?) high-profile example.

 

We can do all of that without making this an excuse to amp up anti-Muslism rhetoric, and painting a wide brush of intolerance against an entire religion.

[BigRedBuster]

I see an interesting time ahead. A continued time of the "inclusive" left including and accommodating for everyone. Well not 'everyone'. What they don't realize is that it is impossible to accommodate everyone because while accommodating for one, you shun another.

 

We have brains. Brains with opinions. Opinions are what make people strong. We always tell our kids, in the sports realm, old adages and quotes talking about "Don't be a follower". When it comes to drugs, sports, social ideology, we never tell students to follow the crowd. If you want to be great you have to be different. So they grow up, forming opinions, doing there thing to be successful. Standing up for what they believe.

 

What we don't tell them is later in life when they become adults. Everything changes. You better follow along with society because if you don't, you will be looked at as an anomaly. An outcast. A nutjob.

 

Or. Maybe they just shouldn't join Huskerboard or whatever other online community they would happen to choose.

Help me understand your thought process with this post.

 

Most people reading this grew up or live on Nebraska. It's probably the redest of red states.

 

So, wouldn't "following the crowd" be to just sit back and believe everything I hear at the local cafe about how horrible all Muslims are and how Obama isn't American and is methodically destroying America?

 

For some reason when I actually try to explain that Obama hasn't been as bad as they think......doesn't feel like I'm following the crowd.

[Danny Bateman]

ISIS is the du jour of many things terrible. Let's not pretend that there aren't more distinctly American flavors, though. The U.S. has its own rich history of LGBT murders on the heel of anti-gay rhetoric from camps Christian and otherwise. Like this one here:

 

 

• Ronald Gay entered a gay bar in Roanoke, Virginia on September 22, 2000 and opened fire on the patrons, killing Danny Overstreet, 43 years old, and severely injuring six others. Ronald said he was angry over what his name now meant, and deeply upset that three of his sons had changed their surname. He claimed that he had been told by God to find and kill lesbians and gay men, describing himself as a "Christian Soldier working for my Lord;" Gay testified in court that "he wished he could have killed more f**s," before several of the shooting victims as well as Danny Overstreet's family and friends.

And how about this one:

 

• Carl Joseph Walker-Hoover, an 11-year-old child in Springfield, Massachusetts, hanged himself with an extension cord on April 6, 2009, after being bullied all school year by peers who said "he acted feminine" and was gay.^[165]

 

The entire history of anti-gay rhetoric is horrible, comprising many people who probably weren't about to go murder but who shouldn't escape culpability for the weight of their hate, as in the above. We can also all agree that any act of violence or hate crime is awful, and can acknowledge the clear sources of radicalization, from these ISIS nuts to crazed white supremacists of whom Dylan Roof is merely the latest (I think?) high-profile example.

 

We can do all of that without making this an excuse to amp up anti-Muslism rhetoric, and painting a wide brush of intolerance against an entire religion.

 

I'm confident when Gay carried out that incident in Virginia, or after the whole Oregon standoff deal earlier this year, no one felt the need to lash out at Christianity as a whole as some type of tainted religion.

 

Why is it OK to do that to Islam?

[ZRod]

 

ISIS is the du jour of many things terrible. Let's not pretend that there aren't more distinctly American flavors, though. The U.S. has its own rich history of LGBT murders on the heel of anti-gay rhetoric from camps Christian and otherwise. Like this one here:

 

 

 

 

• Ronald Gay entered a gay bar in Roanoke, Virginia on September 22, 2000 and opened fire on the patrons, killing Danny Overstreet, 43 years old, and severely injuring six others. Ronald said he was angry over what his name now meant, and deeply upset that three of his sons had changed their surname. He claimed that he had been told by God to find and kill lesbians and gay men, describing himself as a "Christian Soldier working for my Lord;" Gay testified in court that "he wished he could have killed more f**s," before several of the shooting victims as well as Danny Overstreet's family and friends.

And how about this one:

 

 

• Carl Joseph Walker-Hoover, an 11-year-old child in Springfield, Massachusetts, hanged himself with an extension cord on April 6, 2009, after being bullied all school year by peers who said "he acted feminine" and was gay.^[165]

The entire history of anti-gay rhetoric is horrible, comprising many people who probably weren't about to go murder but who shouldn't escape culpability for the weight of their hate, as in the above. We can also all agree that any act of violence or hate crime is awful, and can acknowledge the clear sources of radicalization, from these ISIS nuts to crazed white supremacists of whom Dylan Roof is merely the latest (I think?) high-profile example.

 

We can do all of that without making this an excuse to amp up anti-Muslism rhetoric, and painting a wide brush of intolerance against an entire religion.

I'm confident when Gay carried out that incident in Virginia, or after the whole Oregon standoff deal earlier this year, no one felt the need to lash out at Christianity as a whole as some type of tainted religion.

 

Why is it OK to do that to Islam?

Because they're different.

[The Dude]

Actually it seems like a lot more people are lashing out at fundamentalist Christians due to the latest occurrence of Islamic terrorism, for some bizzare reason.