The 2020 Presidential Election - Convention & General Election

[FrantzHardySwag]

2 minutes ago, Nebfanatic said:

Yes if you are taking what he is saying completely literally then he is wrong. But the fact is people who would have voted for Bernie but won't vote Biden in a swing state strongly enable Trump. Trump is going to get his votes, his base is nonmovable. If 100 people would have voted in a Bernie Trump matchup and Trump gets 45 of those votes he loses. Now if 15 of those people decide they aren't going to vote because its Trump Biden, Trump now has 45 votes to Bidens 40. Not voting absolutely enables Trump because people who would vote Trump are going to go out and vote for the guy. They aren't holding their vote in protest. I promise you, you nor Kulinski wants to get into the arithmetic debate with Chomsky. Yes at face value not voting equals not voting but there is more to it than that. You can try and pick at the logic all you want but I am willing to bet Noam has put in the legwork to back up his points. What he is saying is based in historical context. I find it hilarious Kulinski called the Hitler comparison lazy. His comparison of this situation to what happened in the 30's in Germany is spot on. He wasn't saying Trump is as bad as Hitler and frankly does he have to be? That is ridiculous. If the guy isn't *as bad* as Hitler then stopping the fascism isn't that important. What a joke 

^ This. There are only 2 viable choices. Choices are A or B, if you had to choose you would choose A 99% of the time, but instead of making that choice, you abstain from choosing, well that inadvertently helps B. B no longer has to make up a vote that is undoubtedly would have gone to A (had a choice been made).

[RedDenver]

18 minutes ago, Nebfanatic said:

Yes if you are taking what he is saying completely literally then he is wrong.

You said the arithmetic and in fact you say it again below. Arithmetic is as literal as you can get. There's no figurative arithmetic.

Quote

But the fact is people who would have voted for Bernie but won't vote Biden in a swing state strongly enable Trump. Trump is going to get his votes, his base is nonmovable. If 100 people would have voted in a Bernie Trump matchup and Trump gets 45 of those votes he loses. Now if 15 of those people decide they aren't going to vote because its Trump Biden, Trump now has 45 votes to Bidens 40. Not voting absolutely enables Trump because people who would vote Trump are going to go out and vote for the guy. They aren't holding their vote in protest. I promise you, you nor Kulinski wants to get into the arithmetic debate with Chomsky. Yes at face value not voting equals not voting but there is more to it than that. You can try and pick at the logic all you want but I am willing to bet Noam has put in the legwork to back up his points. What he is saying is based in historical context. I find it hilarious Kulinski called the Hitler comparison lazy. His comparison of this situation to what happened in the 30's in Germany is spot on. He wasn't saying Trump is as bad as Hitler and frankly does he have to be? That is ridiculous. If the guy isn't *as bad* as Hitler then stopping the fascism isn't that important. What a joke 

All of this is based on a false assumption: that people who aren't voting or voting third party would vote for Biden and not Trump if you forced them to.

 

In the historical context, Chomsky should probably have researched that Hitler was in fact never elected as he lost the 1932 presidential election to Paul von Hindenburg but was later appointed chancellor and assumed the presidency after Hindenburg's death in 1934. There is of course much more to the story, but Hitler basically took power because the Nazis were the largest political party and the party of Hindenburg formed a coalition with the Nazis.

[FrantzHardySwag]

1 minute ago, RedDenver said:

All of this is based on a false assumption: that people who aren't voting or voting third party would vote for Biden and not vote if you forced them to.

This is what it comes down to, and I agree with you here. If you think a Biden Presidency would be as bad or worse than a Trump Presidency then you’re argument for not voting Biden would make complete sense. I happen to value things like $15 minimum wage, increases options for healthcare, citizenship for dreamers, decriminalize marijuana, a plan for climate change, more progressive judges in the Supreme Court, an actual pandemic response team, elimination of private prisons, affordable college...

[funhusker]

41 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

I mean, Chomsky is wrong on the arithmetic, so I'm not sure how he'd win that debate. Ask yourself: do we add one to Trump's vote count when someone casts a vote for a third party or doesn't vote? Because if we do, then Trump will win in a landslide. If we don't, then Chomsky is wrong. That's the math.

 

And the logic also fails because it's not consistent. There's nothing about Trump that makes not voting somehow a vote for Trump, which means that logically not voting is also a vote for Biden or any other candidate. It's easy to see this if you replace Biden's and Trump's names if letters A and B where you don't know which is which: Now is not voting a vote for B or is not voting a vote for A? You're going to see Trump supporters start using the same illogic to keep people voting for Trump: not voting or voting third party is a vote for Biden. Anyone who sees both sides doing that are going to know that both sides are being disingenuous and are going to tune them out.

I understand everything you're saying.  I really do.

 

But you are way overthinking this.  We are talking in the context of "defeating Trump".  That's it.  One of two people will be President in 2021: Trump or Biden.  If a person goes to the polls, especially in a swing state, and votes for progressive candidates down the ballot but writes in Bernie Sanders, that is bad for Biden and good for Trump.  It's not a vote "for" Trump, but it is a negative for Biden.

 

I just don't see how people can't realize that.

 

 

[RedDenver]

1 minute ago, FrantzHardySwag said:

This is what it comes down to, and I agree with you here. If you think a Biden Presidency would be as bad or worse than a Trump Presidency then you’re argument for not voting Biden would make complete sense. I happen to value things like $15 minimum wage, increases options for healthcare, citizenship for dreamers, decriminalize marijuana, a plan for climate change, more progressive judges in the Supreme Court, an actual pandemic response team, elimination of private prisons, affordable college...

I agree. My main point is that using obviously incorrect logic to convince/shame third party or non voters into voting for Biden is a bad strategy. Give them reasons not to vote for Trump but - just as, if not more, important - give them reasons to vote for Biden.

[RedDenver]

3 minutes ago, funhusker said:

I understand everything you're saying.  I really do.

 

But you are way overthinking this.  We are talking in the context of "defeating Trump".  That's it.  One of two people will be President in 2021: Trump or Biden.  If a person goes to the polls, especially in a swing state, and votes for progressive candidates down the ballot but writes in Bernie Sanders, that is bad for Biden and good for Trump.  It's not a vote "for" Trump, but it is a negative for Biden.

 

I just don't see how people can't realize that.

Let me give a couple examples of people I know and debate politics with in real life.

 

My relatives all live in Nebraska and are diehard Republicans, but they've become increasingly uncomfortable with Trump. I've been showing them all the terrible stuff Trump has done and all the ways he doesn't support or even care about them. But they absolutely despise Biden and the Dems. I've been suggesting they can not vote or vote third-party, but they're mostly convinced that not voting is a vote for Biden, citing arguments by Biden supporters that not voting is a vote for Trump. I've been explaining that both arguments are illogical and trying to convince them not to listen to people who can't even form a logical argument. I'm hopeful, but we'll see.

 

Some of my friends are Bernie supporters, but they are more anti-establishment than left or progressive. They're on the fence about voting Biden or not voting, but Biden supporters trying to shame them with the argument that not voting is a vote for Trump is actually pushing several of them towards voting Trump and one them towards voting Biden. I've been trying to convince them to also ignore the illogical and instead wait and see what Biden does.

[Nebfanatic]

32 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

You said the arithmetic and in fact you say it again below. Arithmetic is as literal as you can get. There's no figurative arithmetic.

There is nothing figurative about the math. The math confirms not voting enables Trump. I'm not sure how its a false assumption that those not voting or voting 3rd party would vote Biden if forced to. Are you going to commit to the idea most of those people would vote Trump? I was using a simple scenario to describe how not voting enables Trump, but when you expand that scenario to an actual swing state like Florida which has millions of voters it only takes a simple majority of those non voters to make a massive difference. 

[RedDenver]

4 minutes ago, Nebfanatic said:

There is nothing figurative about the math.

Agreed, that's what I said.

 

4 minutes ago, Nebfanatic said:

The math confirms not voting enables Trump.

This is false as I've already shown.

 

4 minutes ago, Nebfanatic said:

I'm not sure how its a false assumption that those not voting or voting 3rd party would vote Biden if forced to. Are you going to commit to the idea most of those people would vote Trump? I was using a simple scenario to describe how not voting enables Trump, but when you expand that scenario to an actual swing state like Florida which has millions of voters it only takes a simple majority of those non voters to make a massive difference. 

Have you ever tried to force someone to do something they didn't want to do? Did it result in them taking extra time and energy to do what you wanted, or did they rebel against being forced and tend to do the opposite? And if you're trying to convince them instead of forcing them, how do they react when the first thing you argue is obviously untrue?

 

Not voting is super easy - literally do nothing. But if you want them to vote Biden, they need to expend the time and energy to go vote PLUS choose to vote for Biden. I don't think you're going to be able to force them to do it, and I think you immediately undermine you're own credibility when you try to convince them with what's obviously untrue.

[Nebfanatic]

3 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

Agreed, that's what I said.

 

This is false as I've already shown.

 

Have you ever tried to force someone to do something they didn't want to do? Did it result in them taking extra time and energy to do what you wanted, or did they rebel against being forced and tend to do the opposite? And if you're trying to convince them instead of forcing them, how do they react when the first thing you argue is obviously untrue?

 

Not voting is super easy - literally do nothing. But if you want them to vote Biden, they need to expend the time and energy to go vote PLUS choose to vote for Biden. I don't think you're going to be able to force them to do it, and I think you immediately undermine you're own credibility when you try to convince them with what's obviously untrue.

You did nothing of the sort showing thats untrue. Being blunt about the effects of not voting isn't forcing anyone into anything. Its just math. You are assuming I or Noam Chomsky are saying this to get people to go vote. That is a false assumption. Ultimately, people that would have voted against Trump in another situation but won't now give Trump a better chance at victory. 

[funhusker]

26 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

Let me give a couple examples of people I know and debate politics with in real life.

 

My relatives all live in Nebraska and are diehard Republicans, but they've become increasingly uncomfortable with Trump. I've been showing them all the terrible stuff Trump has done and all the ways he doesn't support or even care about them. But they absolutely despise Biden and the Dems. I've been suggesting they can not vote or vote third-party, but they're mostly convinced that not voting is a vote for Biden, citing arguments by Biden supporters that not voting is a vote for Trump. I've been explaining that both arguments are illogical and trying to convince them not to listen to people who can't even form a logical argument. I'm hopeful, but we'll see.

 

Some of my friends are Bernie supporters, but they are more anti-establishment than left or progressive. They're on the fence about voting Biden or not voting, but Biden supporters trying to shame them with the argument that not voting is a vote for Trump is actually pushing several of them towards voting Trump and one them towards voting Biden. I've been trying to convince them to also ignore the illogical and instead wait and see what Biden does.

Here's my bottom line: I don't want Trump to win in 2020.  

 

What is the best thing I can do, on election day assuming Biden is still the nominee, to have a physical impact on achieving my goal?

 

Vote Trump

Vote Biden

Vote for someone else

 

Your family doesn't want Biden to win more than they want to see Trump lose.  We aren't talking about that kind of people here.  We also aren't talking about anti-establishment voters.  I'm pretty sure that's already been conceded that they will vote Trump or not at all.  The discussion, as far as I know, is about progressive people not wanting to plug their nose and vote for Biden even though they have disdain for Trump.

 

Am I reading this conversation all wrong?

[commando]

if the progressives don't want to go vote for someone that is at least not trying to hurt them like trump is...well... i will laugh at them if trump wins and does all he can to hurt them long after he is out of office with his court packing.  if they can't be bothered to help themselves they deserve it.

[RedDenver]

 

[Nebfanatic]

Honestly though, its not worth the debate because I am in the camp those people aren't going to matter. I think there will be enough people voting that it won't make a difference 

[RedDenver]

7 minutes ago, Nebfanatic said:

You did nothing of the sort showing thats untrue. Being blunt about the effects of not voting isn't forcing anyone into anything. Its just math. You are assuming I or Noam Chomsky are saying this to get people to go vote. That is a false assumption. Ultimately, people that would have voted against Trump in another situation but won't now give Trump a better chance at victory. 

By all means, show the math then! Show how Trump's vote count changes based on how someone votes. That's the math.

[RedDenver]

3 minutes ago, funhusker said:

Here's my bottom line: I don't want Trump to win in 2020.  

 

What is the best thing I can do, on election day assuming Biden is still the nominee, to have a physical impact on achieving my goal?

 

Vote Trump

Vote Biden

Vote for someone else

 

Your family doesn't want Biden to win more than they want to see Trump lose.  We aren't talking about that kind of people here.  We also aren't talking about anti-establishment voters.  I'm pretty sure that's already been conceded that they will vote Trump or not at all.  The discussion, as far as I know, is about progressive people not wanting to plug their nose and vote for Biden even though they have disdain for Trump.

 

Am I reading this conversation all wrong?

I was discussing specifically whether not voting is the same as voting for Trump and gave examples why that's not a good argument and can undermine the goal of the people making it. There's a lot more voters out there than just progressives that this argument can affect.

 

As for progressives, that's where I was asking about Kyle Kulinski's proposals for Biden to get him (and presumably other progressives) to vote for Biden. And if not Kulinski's proposals, then how can we get progressives on the fence to vote for Biden? The answer so far seems to be eff those voters because they don't hate Trump as much as they "should", which I think is fine if someone is just looking be on the ethical high ground but self-defeating if someone would rather beat Trump.