The Right to Carry a Gun

[knapplc]

The very first line of the article teach posted says:
 

"Multiple interacting factors contribute to violent behavior."

 

The second paragraph:
 

Quote

 

Public opinion surveys suggest that many people think mental illness and violence go hand in hand. A 2006 national survey found, for example, that 60% of Americans thought that people with schizophrenia were likely to act violently toward someone else, while 32% thought that people with major depression were likely to do so.

 

In fact, research suggests that this public perception does not reflect reality. Most individuals with psychiatric disorders are not violent. Although a subset of people with psychiatric disorders commit assaults and violent crimes, findings have been inconsistent about how much mental illness contributes to this behavior and how much substance abuse and other factors do.

 

 

You can cherry-pick lines to try and make a fallacious point.

 

Some people who commit gun crimes are mentally ill. Some are Pantera fans. You're just as likely to find a solution to the problem by banning Pantera fans from access to guns as you are pursuing the mental illness angle. But both are the wrong path to a broader solution.

 

The common factor is easy access to guns. It is that simple.

[Nebfanatic]

51 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

I've known people who have had severe loss and they are so overwhelmed that they can't think straight.  They get help. The worst cases are admitted for observation and help.  Some just get counseling.  

 

But, I could see someone in that situation acting out against someone violently if they aren't helped.  Not just because of murders or mass shootings, but we need improved mental health care in this country bad.

You can say this all you like but people have been killing people all over the world since the beginning of time and that will never change 

[Redux]

18 minutes ago, knapplc said:

The common factor is easy access to guns. It is that simple.

 

So basically guns are like crack, once you've touched it you can't help but over do it.

[teachercd]

So you admit it!  Why did it take this long?  

That is all we are saying...

We (or I) have not been talking about a solution, I have already said I don't care if they take away every single gun in the world.  Fine with me!

 

But why did it take you so long to admit that people who use guns to kill people have issues?

 

Also, I love that you looked up the research yourself and didn't find what you wanted so you went with that quote.  Of course multiple factors contribute to violent behavior, we have all been saying that, you were the only one saying it was just guns.  Multiple factors contribute to speeding tickets too.

[teachercd]

2 minutes ago, Redux said:

 

So basically guns are like crack, once you've touched it you can't help but over do it.

Ha...Can ummm...you show me facts?

 

 

[Redux]

1 hour ago, Nebfanatic said:

You can say this all you like but people have been killing people all over the world since the beginning of time and that will never change 

 

.....yes they have!  And without the aid of guns!

[commando]

so we are in favor of background checks to try to keep guns away from the people who are most likely to do something stupid with them?  or are we saying there is nothing we can do so live with it?

[teachercd]

1 minute ago, commando said:

so we are in favor of background checks to try to keep guns away from the people who are most likely to do something stupid with them?  or are we saying there is nothing we can do so live with it?

I have no clue what the background check is like...but I can tell you this.  I have a very good friend who has been in a loony-bin twice and was put on disability for being crazy (no, I am not going to give you the court case number so that you can look it up, wink) and he, in the last 2 years, has gone out and bought 5 guns.  

 

M-15 (I think that was the name?)

Beretta 

Shotgun

 

and two other guns that I don't remember the names of...he visits a shrink once a week and takes meds for his crazy...and has had no problem getting guns...we joke about it all the time actually!

 

He is also a raging drunk...so he has the two things needed for gun violence...crazy and booze.  

 

He also has he CC permit.   

[Nebfanatic]

7 minutes ago, Redux said:

 

.....yes they have!  And without the aid of guns!

Yes but guns are tools literally meant to kill. Why are we making it easier to kill each other if we are already predisposed to that behavior?

[commando]

1 minute ago, teachercd said:

I have no clue what the background check is like...but I can tell you this.  I have a very good friend who has been in a loony-bin twice and was put on disability for being crazy (no, I am not going to give you the court case number so that you can look it up, wink) and he, in the last 2 years, has gone out and bought 5 guns.  

 

M-15 (I think that was the name?)

Beretta 

Shotgun

 

and two other guns that I don't remember the names of...he visits a shrink once a week and takes meds for his crazy...and has had no problem getting guns...we joke about it all the time actually!

 

He is also a raging drunk...so he has the two things needed for gun violence...crazy and booze.  

 

He also has he CC permit.   

yep....the current gun laws are so lax we might as well not have them.....but they are better than nothing i guess.   they are all we can get from the NRA right now.       but lot's of room for improvement IMO..

[teachercd]

5 minutes ago, commando said:

yep....the current gun laws are so lax we might as well not have them.....but they are better than nothing i guess.   they are all we can get from the NRA right now.       but lot's of room for improvement IMO..

I do find it odd that some would argue there is not a need for mental health background checks...since there is evidence to show that crazy people don't shoot people.

[BigRedBuster]

2 hours ago, knapplc said:

The very first line of the article teach posted says:
 

"Multiple interacting factors contribute to violent behavior."

 

The second paragraph:
 

 

You can cherry-pick lines to try and make a fallacious point.

 

Some people who commit gun crimes are mentally ill. Some are Pantera fans. You're just as likely to find a solution to the problem by banning Pantera fans from access to guns as you are pursuing the mental illness angle. But both are the wrong path to a broader solution.

 

The common factor is easy access to guns. It is that simple.

Nobody said all mentally ill people are going to be violent. 

[teachercd]

Just now, BigRedBuster said:

Nobody said all mentally ill people are going to be violent. 

All Pantera fans might be though...their tunes get me pretty riled up!

 

Ironic because I do think their lead singer (maybe gutarist) was shot and killed while playing a gig...wait...he was...by some dude with the last name of Gale

 

 

Bender said Gale told him he’d left the Marines due to mental problems, was taking medication and may have been bipolar. “Nathan was infatuated with guitarists,” said Bender. “One of our tattoo artists plays guitar, and Nathan started trying to hang out with him.”

[JJ Husker]

12 hours ago, NM11046 said:

This is a great, thorough post.  

To answer one question you posed, I think social media has played a huge role.  I'd like to look back at mass shootings in alignment with live online streaming and FB, Twitter etc.  i think we see a spike when these sad, lonely, sick men decide the best thing they can expect out of life is to go out with their name being known.  

Thank you.

 

What I have been trying to do, and so far have been unable, is to get one of the people in here who is stuck solely on easy access and gun worship culture to admit that there are other things apparently occuring in our society that actually cause these people to go shoot up a mall/school/theatre. It's my position that easy access makes it possible and more likely to occur but there are more significant structural problems other than gun laws that we should also be dealing with.

 

Would adopting stricter gun laws and making access tougher reduce the problem in this country? Sure it would. There is tons of data showing this works in other countries. But I maintain that easy access to guns is NOT what causes people to want to shoot a bunch of other people. There is something else going on with those people. I'm not saying it's all mental illness but it is something in their upbringing, schooling, society or heads that is causing them to lash out because it is not normal behavior to want to kill a bunch of people. Easy access to guns makes it more likely and more possible but it isn't the core cause. I have easy access to guns and I've never shot anyone. This may seem simplistic but I don't believe we have to accept whatever it is in society that is turning these people into mass murderers.

 

And I resent the veiled accusations that I have been repeating NRA talking points about mental illness. I hate the NRA. I don't receive or read their propaganda. IMO this country would be much better off without their ilk lobbying and paying off our elected officials. But until they go away and we have a chance to tweak our gun laws I think it would be wise for us as a country to also identify the real issues that are causing increasing numbers of people to go shoot 20+ people. I think we stand a better chance of addressing those issues in the near term than we do of adopting European type gun laws.

[Redux]

1 hour ago, Nebfanatic said:

Yes but guns are tools literally meant to kill. Why are we making it easier to kill each other if we are already predisposed to that behavior?

 

I've said I'm in favor of making it harder to purchase guns.  I own several myself and have no problem waiting 2 weeks and getting a background check to purchase a weapon.  But truth is, my last couple purchases were done at an auction and a private sale.