The P&R Plague Thread (Covid-19)

[Guy Chamberlin]

17 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

If you can show me where he actually said all this, then I will answer your question.  And not what you think he meant.  That he said no mitigation whatsoever. 

 

Atlas claims he never used the word "herd immunity" but somehow he managed to describe herb immunity using other words. I don't necessarily disagree with him about reopening schools, but he is a Hoover fellow who was hired to advance Trump's mistrust of science and red state rebellion.

 

There are plenty of links you could have Googled in seconds. I just grabbed this one. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/11/16/michigan-scott-atlas-coronavirus/

 

 

[Jason Sitoke]

2 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

Atlas claims he never used the word "herd immunity" but somehow he managed to describe herb immunity using other words.

 

I've never heard of this, but I'm assuming if it's possible, there are folks in Colorado that are beginning to experience it.

[Archy1221]

4 hours ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

I see where you're going, and you're not entirely wrong. The vaccine development and subsidized rollout were already in place when Biden took office, and the administration has since followed the playbook the CDC had already established under Trump. Only an idiot leader would try to undermine the best available public health options for saving American lives.

 

But that's what the idiot leader before Biden did. 

 

Only when a vaccine looked promising enough to help him win reelection did Donald Trump stop hawking snake oil cures, and honestly he never stopped pretending he knew more about science and stuff than Dr. Fauci. 

 

Biden has done what he needed to do.

 

We'll never know, but it certainly would have been interesting if the COVID Vaccine had been branded the Trump Vaccine as he wanted, and whether that would have changed folks opinions on getting the shot.

What you are telling me is Biden hasn’t done anything to combat Covid that has had any marginal effect that wasn’t done in the previous admin or started in the previous admin?  

[Archy1221]

6 hours ago, Danny Bateman said:

 

How about: Taken it seriously?

 

It seems like some Republicans try to play this game where they retcon the entire thing and just pretend the Trump administration tried very hard and treated COVID very seriously the entire time they could address it.

 

The rest of us were there. We saw their response. They hocked unproven treatments that didn't end up working, wouldn't tell people to vaccinate, held party gatherings at the White House that generated outrbeaks and wound up telling us it would magically go away, sans any proof.

 

Come on, man. Asking us not to remember that stuff is insulting our intelligence. These two responses aren't equal.

So you are also telling me that Biden has done nothing to marginally impact Covid that wasn’t done previously?   I think we all knew the vaccine/immunity was the only way out of this story.  
 

BTW…I didn’t ask you not to remember anything.   Come on man…

[Archy1221]

3 hours ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

How about this approach? Singapore is considering refusing hospitalization for COVID patients who refused the COVID vaccine.

 

Pretty cold, but pretty pragmatic. A personal accountability position even conservatives could get behind ---- if it wasn't COVID.

 

Singapore is such an interesting case. The ultimate pro-business hub of capitalist enterprise, but with a hard core government keeping everyone in line. 

Sure.  Just do the same for smokers, drug addicts, fatso’s and anyone who doesn’t exercise everyday unless they have a legitimate disability.  Personal accountability and such. 

[Archy1221]

48 minutes ago, commando said:

can you show us where republicans push for vaccines and masks as hard as they push the stolen election crap?   of course they said once or twice to take the vaccine or wear a mask..then they proceed to poo poo masks and vaccines and tell people they don't need them over and over and over again.   heck...they sell shirts with "say no to the fauci ouchie" on them. 

 

[Archy1221]

36 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

Atlas claims he never used the word "herd immunity" but somehow he managed to describe herb immunity using other words. I don't necessarily disagree with him about reopening schools, but he is a Hoover fellow who was hired to advance Trump's mistrust of science and red state rebellion.

 

There are plenty of links you could have Googled in seconds. I just grabbed this one. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/11/16/michigan-scott-atlas-coronavirus/

 

 

I can’t access that story.  Since you can, did he advocate for total herd immunity (meaning everyone just get infected) and no mitigation measures like what someone claimed?   If not, like you said there are plenty of links to Google, find one. 

[RedDenver]

 

Crazy, sad, and infuriating thread.

[Guy Chamberlin]

2 hours ago, Archy1221 said:

What you are telling me is Biden hasn’t done anything to combat Covid that has had any marginal effect that wasn’t done in the previous admin or started in the previous admin?  

 

What I'm telling you is what I told you in the words I specifically chose, a handful of which you always choose to ignore. 

[Guy Chamberlin]

2 hours ago, Archy1221 said:

I can’t access that story.  Since you can, did he advocate for total herd immunity (meaning everyone just get infected) and no mitigation measures like what someone claimed?   If not, like you said there are plenty of links to Google, find one. 

 

Trump coronavirus adviser tells Michigan to ‘rise up’ against new shutdown orders

 

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Michigan governor announces new coronavirus restrictions

 

 

Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer (D) on Nov. 15 suspended indoor dining at restaurants and bars for three weeks due to the rising number of coronavirus cases. (Governor Gretchen Whitmer/Facebook)

By Katie Shepherd

November 16, 2020

 

On Sunday, Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer (D) announced a three-week “pause to save lives,” closing colleges, high schools, workplaces and in-person dining as new coronavirus cases have spiked.

After she appealed to the Trump administration to intervene in the pandemic, White House coronavirus adviser Scott Atlas responded with a call to action. But instead of supporting Whitmer’s efforts to slow the spread of the novel coronavirus in Michigan, he urged residents to reject the state’s public health guidelines.

 

“The only way this stops is if people rise up,” Atlas said in a tweet Sunday night, which quoted a reporter who had shared information about Whitmer’s new restrictions. “You get what you accept. #FreedomMatters #StepUp.”

 

Critics immediately condemned Atlas’s “rise up” rhetoric, which mirrored President Trump’s previous calls to “LIBERATE MICHIGAN!” and statements that correlated “tyranny” with the pandemic restrictions put in place by Whitmer, who was the target of an alleged kidnapping plot that was thwarted last month. The suspects said they planned the attack because the Michigan governor was a “tyrant b----,” according to the FBI.

 

Who is Scott Atlas, Trump's new pandemic adviser?

 

Scott Atlas, neuroradiologist and fellow at Stanford’s conservative Hoover Institution, made controversial statements about lockdowns and school reopenings. (The Washington Post)

Whitmer responded to Atlas’s tweet Sunday night on CNN, where she defended the three-week pause that resembles the stay-at-home orders issued in many cities and states early in the pandemic.

 

 

 

 

 

“We know that the White House likes to single us out here in Michigan, me out in particular,” Whitmer told CNN. “I’m not going to be bullied into not following reputable scientists and medical professionals.”

 

Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel (D) also slammed Atlas, calling the tweet “disappointing, irresponsible, and the reason why the United States finds itself in such desperate circumstances regarding COVID-19.” She said the opposition to restrictions would lead to more coronavirus cases and deaths.

“A patriot is one who protects America from its enemies, both foreign and domestic,” Nessel said in a tweet. “COVID-19 is the enemy, not each other. Stop pitting Americans against each other and start supporting policies proven to effectively fight the virus.”

 

 

Atlas defended his tweet Sunday night from the torrent of criticism, claiming that he was not attempting to incite violence in telling Michigan residents to “rise up.”

 

 

 

 

 

 

“Hey. I NEVER was talking at all about violence,” Atlas said in a follow-up tweet. “People vote, people peacefully protest. NEVER would I endorse or incite violence. NEVER!!”

Atlas, a neuroradiologist and fellow at Stanford’s conservative Hoover Institution, joined the White House as a pandemic adviser in August despite having no background in public health or infectious diseases. He has promoted a controversial approach that would fully reopen the U.S. economy by attempting herd immunity, implementing a strategy used by officials in Sweden that reportedly gained favor with Trump.

Public health experts in the United States and abroad have criticized the idea of using herd immunity, which would allow the virus to spread through the general population while protecting vulnerable people. Herd immunity is the goal of many vaccines, like the childhood inoculation that prevents measles, but it is not commonly accepted as a way to control pandemic viruses.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The World Health Organization has called the strategy of using herd immunity to tamp down the coronavirus pandemic “very dangerous,” because many people would die trying to reach that goal.

On Sunday, doctors joined a chorus of political critics attacking Atlas for opposing Michigan’s new restrictions amid a spike in covid-19 cases and hospitalizations.

“What Scott Atlas says is wrong and extremely harmful,” Leana S. Wen, an emergency room physician and visiting professor at George Washington University’s Milken Institute School of Public Health, told CNN Sunday.

Not all Trump administration officials share Atlas’s views on coronavirus restrictions. In tweets that backed stronger precautions across the country, U.S. Surgeon General Jerome M. Adams said Sunday that Americans should strive to be a “patriot” by wearing masks and staying home, even as the holiday season approaches.

“This isn’t forever. It’s for long enough to flatten this curve and bridge to rapid vaccination of vulnerable populations,” Adams said in a tweet. “Our country has been through worse, and sacrificed immediate comforts for the greater good. Now we need short term sacrifice to protect the vulnerable.”

[Guy Chamberlin]

Oct 18, 2020 - Health

Infectious-disease expert: Scott Atlas' herd immunity claims are "pseudoscience"

Orion Rummler

 

 

 

 

Michael Osterholm, a renowned infectious-disease expert, said on NBC's "Meet the Press" Sunday that a "herd immunity" theory reportedly invoked by one of President Trump's favorite coronavirus advisers "is the most amazing combination of pixie dust and pseudoscience I've ever seen."

Context: Senior administration officials, who spoke anonymously with reporters last week in a call scheduled by the White House, said that allowing "those who are at minimal risk of death to live their lives normally to build up immunity to the virus through natural infection" is the "most compassionate approach that balances the risks and benefits of reaching herd immunity," per the New York Times and Washington Post.

• Achieving herd immunity — in which widespread outbreaks are prevented because enough people in a community are immune to a disease — without an effective vaccine would result in widespread fatalities.

Driving the news: Scott Atlas, a radiologist who has clashed with other members of the coronavirus task force over his controversial views, reportedly turned down a proposed increase in coronavirus testing by a New York University economist in September by referencing a theory that only 25% or 20% of people need the infection for the rest of the population to be protected, according to the New York Times.

What they're saying: "First of all, that 20% number is the most amazing combination of pixie dust and pseudoscience I've ever seen," Osterholm said in response to Atlas' alleged comments. "It is 50%–70% at minimum."

• "And remember when we talk about getting to 50%–70% protection, we're talking you can get there with disease — but if that happens, there will be lots of deaths, a lot of serious illnesses — or we can try to get there with vaccination, and postponing the number of people who get sick until we have the vaccines available."
• "5o%–70% just slows down transmission, it doesn't stop it. So this virus is going to keep looking for wood to burn for as long as it can ... so, our goal is to get as many people protected with vaccines," he said.

The other side: Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar told NBC's Chuck Todd on Sunday that herd immunity is not the Trump administration's policy to deal with the pandemic, adding, "It's a desire through vaccination to get to herd immunity, but it may be an outcome of all of those steps, but the desire is to reduce cases."

• White House press secretary Kayleigh McEnany told reporters last month that "herd immunity has never been a strategy" for the Trump administration's response to the coronavirus, after the president claimed that the coronavirus would disappear when people develop "a herd mentality."

The big picture: Osterholm warned that the U.S. is likely to "blow right through" its July peak in infections, with case numbers "much larger" than 75,000 per day as the country barrels toward a "very dark fall."

Go deeper: Twitter removes tweet from Scott Atlas claiming masks do not work

 

[Archy1221]

1 hour ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

Oct 18, 2020 - Health

Infectious-disease expert: Scott Atlas' herd immunity claims are "pseudoscience"

Orion Rummler

 

 

 

 

Michael Osterholm, a renowned infectious-disease expert, said on NBC's "Meet the Press" Sunday that a "herd immunity" theory reportedly invoked by one of President Trump's favorite coronavirus advisers "is the most amazing combination of pixie dust and pseudoscience I've ever seen."

Context: Senior administration officials, who spoke anonymously with reporters last week in a call scheduled by the White House, said that allowing "those who are at minimal risk of death to live their lives normally to build up immunity to the virus through natural infection" is the "most compassionate approach that balances the risks and benefits of reaching herd immunity," per the New York Times and Washington Post.

• Achieving herd immunity — in which widespread outbreaks are prevented because enough people in a community are immune to a disease — without an effective vaccine would result in widespread fatalities.

Driving the news: Scott Atlas, a radiologist who has clashed with other members of the coronavirus task force over his controversial views, reportedly turned down a proposed increase in coronavirus testing by a New York University economist in September by referencing a theory that only 25% or 20% of people need the infection for the rest of the population to be protected, according to the New York Times.

What they're saying: "First of all, that 20% number is the most amazing combination of pixie dust and pseudoscience I've ever seen," Osterholm said in response to Atlas' alleged comments. "It is 50%–70% at minimum."

• "And remember when we talk about getting to 50%–70% protection, we're talking you can get there with disease — but if that happens, there will be lots of deaths, a lot of serious illnesses — or we can try to get there with vaccination, and postponing the number of people who get sick until we have the vaccines available."
• "5o%–70% just slows down transmission, it doesn't stop it. So this virus is going to keep looking for wood to burn for as long as it can ... so, our goal is to get as many people protected with vaccines," he said.

The other side: Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar told NBC's Chuck Todd on Sunday that herd immunity is not the Trump administration's policy to deal with the pandemic, adding, "It's a desire through vaccination to get to herd immunity, but it may be an outcome of all of those steps, but the desire is to reduce cases."

• White House press secretary Kayleigh McEnany told reporters last month that "herd immunity has never been a strategy" for the Trump administration's response to the coronavirus, after the president claimed that the coronavirus would disappear when people develop "a herd mentality."

The big picture: Osterholm warned that the U.S. is likely to "blow right through" its July peak in infections, with case numbers "much larger" than 75,000 per day as the country barrels toward a "very dark fall."

Go deeper: Twitter removes tweet from Scott Atlas claiming masks do not work

 

@Dr. Strangelove wrote this…

 

 A person who theorized that social distancing did not work, masks do not work, and that the country should aim for natural herd immunity through infection without mitigation. 

 

I responded with please show me where he said that…meaning natural infection without mitigation.   You haven’t shown me that.  What Atlas talked about, rightly or wrongly, was allowing the younger population to live their lives without lockdowns and protect the elderly and at risk population (mitigation) 

[Dr. Strangelove]

7 hours ago, Archy1221 said:

If you can show me where he actually said all this, then I will answer your question.  And not what you think he meant.  That he said no mitigation whatsoever. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trumps-den-of-dissent-inside-the-white-house-task-force-as-coronavirus-surges/2020/10/19/7ff8ee6a-0a6e-11eb-859b-f9c27abe638d_story.html

 

To quote the article: 

"Atlas shot down attempts to expand testing. He openly feuded with other doctors on the coronavirus task force and succeeded in largely sidelining them. He advanced fringe theories, such as that social distancing and mask-wearing were meaningless and would not have changed the course of the virus in several hard-hit areas. And he advocated allowing infections to spread naturally among most of the population while protecting the most vulnerable and those in nursing homes until the United States reaches herd immunity, which experts say would cause excess deaths, according to three current and former senior administration officials."

 

Hey, it's cool bro, I'm sure nobody was harmed by this! 

[Dr. Strangelove]

2 hours ago, Archy1221 said:

@Dr. Strangelove wrote this…

 

 A person who theorized that social distancing did not work, masks do not work, and that the country should aim for natural herd immunity through infection without mitigation. 

 

I responded with please show me where he said that…meaning natural infection without mitigation.   You haven’t shown me that.  What Atlas talked about, rightly or wrongly, was allowing the younger population to live their lives without lockdowns and protect the elderly and at risk population (mitigation) 

HAHAHAHAHA. 

 

I get it, reading is hard. But, the guy advocated for natural immunity for nearly the entire country except for people in nursing homes.

 

This is not the defense of Trump that you think it is. The guy did not believe in mitigation for the general population because he's a quack. Your defense of this is quite amazing - but hey, you either defend the indefensible like you're doing right now or confront the reality that the guy you voted for (twice) is an incompetent moron who needlessly got an untold number of Americans killed because he listened to this guy. 

 

Oh well, for the mere cost of thousands of Americans your boi got two Supreme Court Justices, congrats!

[Archy1221]

9 hours ago, Dr. Strangelove said:

HAHAHAHAHA. 

 

I get it, reading is hard. But, the guy advocated for natural immunity for nearly the entire country except for people in nursing homes.

 

This is not the defense of Trump that you think it is. The guy did not believe in mitigation for the general population because he's a quack. Your defense of this is quite amazing - but hey, you either defend the indefensible like you're doing right now or confront the reality that the guy you voted for (twice) is an incompetent moron who needlessly got an untold number of Americans killed because he listened to this guy. 

 

Oh well, for the mere cost of thousands of Americans your boi got two Supreme Court Justices, congrats!

Reading does seem hard for you.  I don’t know why.  I’m asking you to show your work on a specific charge you said about an individual.  This has nothing to do with Trump yet you bring him into it.  It has to do with you saying Atlas didn’t believe in any mitigation while wanting everyone to get infected through here immunity.   It’s just Not true.  Atlas seems to be anti-lockdown and take care of the vulnerable.