The Democrat Utopia

[B.B. Hemingway]

Just now, NM11046 said:

I just had to look that up - I had no idea that it was 61% that didn't pay!  Learned something new today!!

 

But BB - help me understand, I know the number is huge, but do you think that Joe the GE worker that gets a handful of stock options each year should pay the same amount of tax on those as the Pharmaceutical CEO?  I'm trying to get my head around your opinions on this.

 

I think they should pay the same percentage. And I say realizing that Elon technically paid a lower percentage, but there are a number of reasons why that's the case (those who run a business will understand), and he paid $11 billion.... That's plenty.

[Archy1221]

41 minutes ago, B.B. Hemingway said:

 

As he has stated multiple times, most of his money isn't exactly liquid. 

Nobody should be handing over $11 billion in a single year to s fiscally irresponsible government. It's absurd. 

And people here don’t seem to understand he didn’t have income to tax in years he didn’t pay income tax.  Or he had enough deductions on limited income.  Either way people should know it’s an income system not a wealth system 

[NM11046]

1 minute ago, B.B. Hemingway said:

 

I think they should pay the same percentage. And I say realizing that Elon technically paid a lower percentage, but there are a number of reasons why that's the case (those who run a business will understand), and he paid $11 billion.... That's plenty.

But when he chose to take his compensation as company shares vs a salary and bonus didn't he sorta commit to the tax that comes with that?  

[B.B. Hemingway]

21 minutes ago, NM11046 said:

But when he chose to take his compensation as company shares vs a salary and bonus didn't he sorta commit to the tax that comes with that?  

 

He did. And he paid a hefty amount.

 

22 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

And people here don’t seem to understand he didn’t have income to tax in years he didn’t pay income tax.  Or he had enough deductions on limited income.  Either way people should know it’s an income system not a wealth system 

 

Yep. It isn't that hard.

[B.B. Hemingway]

Wonderfully put, Dan.

 

https://twitter.com/DanCrenshawTX/status/1473091625865945100?t=cvk_juHLZHFKrVjy-vPJAg&s=19

[RedDenver]

1 hour ago, B.B. Hemingway said:

 

He's worth $239 billion because he built something. It wasn't by chance, or luck.

 

Elon Musk is a really good CEO and salesman. Much like P.T. Barnum or Thomas Edison. But he did not build much of Tesla or SpaceX. Decades of research done by millions of people around the world, supported mainly by government funding, is what even made the technology of those companies possible. And then it was the tens of thousands of workers that actually built those companies. Musk stood on those collective works and helped to build Tesla and SpaceX, but certainly he does not need hundreds of billions of dollars for doing so.

 

Musk didn't even start Tesla: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1131215_tesla-existed-before-elon-musk-founders-on-how-they-pitched-the-idea

 

Quote

 

While he's the face of the electric-car maker today, Elon Musk did not start Tesla.

 

Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpenning were co-founders of Tesla, aiming to produce what became the Tesla Roadster. They attracted investment from Musk, who was granted a chairman of the board position with his investment in 2004, during Tesla's first funding round.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, B.B. Hemingway said:

 

I think they should pay the same percentage. And I say realizing that Elon technically paid a lower percentage, but there are a number of reasons why that's the case (those who run a business will understand), and he paid $11 billion.... That's plenty.

How to tell me you don't understand basic economics: advocating for a flat tax. Even early capitalists like John Smith realized that a flat tax wouldn't work since the rich held a disproportionate share of the wealth. And that's before considering that the more wealth you have, the more the government helps you out. Policing and interstate commerce are WAY more valuable the more you have to lose and gain by them.

[B.B. Hemingway]

32 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

 

Elon Musk is a really good CEO and salesman. Much like P.T. Barnum or Thomas Edison. But he did not build much of Tesla or SpaceX. Decades of research done by millions of people around the world, supported mainly by government funding, is what even made the technology of those companies possible. And then it was the tens of thousands of workers that actually built those companies. Musk stood on those collective works and helped to build Tesla and SpaceX, but certainly he does not need hundreds of billions of dollars for doing so.

 

Musk didn't even start Tesla: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1131215_tesla-existed-before-elon-musk-founders-on-how-they-pitched-the-idea

 

 

 

How to tell me you don't understand basic economics: advocating for a flat tax. Even early capitalists like John Smith realized that a flat tax wouldn't work since the rich held a disproportionate share of the wealth. And that's before considering that the more wealth you have, the more the government helps you out. Policing and interstate commerce are WAY more valuable the more you have to lose and gain by them.

 

First paragraph:  Yeah. It was that easy. Read some of the stories of those who have worked close with him. He's tirelessly motivated, and generationally intelligent. Of course there are other smart people helping him along the way. I would have thought that went without saying.

 

Second paragraph: That's cute. Not an expert, but I assure you that I'm moderately educated in how economics work, and a flat tax would undoubtedly work if two things happen: 1) EVERYBODY pays the flat tax on their income. Not 40% of the country. Everybody.  2) The government spends tax money responsibly. 

[RedDenver]

3 minutes ago, B.B. Hemingway said:

 

First paragraph:  Yeah. It was that easy. Read some of the stories of those who have worked close with him. He's tirelessly motivated, and generationally intelligent. Of course there are other smart people helping him along the way. I would have thought that went without saying.

I didn't say it was easy or that Musk wasn't a tireless worker. But there are many, many tireless workers out there, many probably at Tesla not getting but the teeniest, tiniest fraction of what Musk is making. But regardless, none of that means Musk should get absurd wealth.

 

I don't think people really appreciate how much money he's worth. There are fewer than 50 countries whose GDP is more than Musk's wealth: https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/countries-by-gdp

 

There are 164 countries on that list with GDP less than $250 billion and only 47 with more. But yes, let's defend the guy paying 4% of his net worth and 11% of his annual increase in worth.

 

3 minutes ago, B.B. Hemingway said:

Second paragraph: That's cute. Not an expert, but I assure you that I'm moderately educated in how economics work, and a flat tax would undoubtedly work if two things happen: 1) EVERYBODY pays the flat tax on their income. Not 40% of the country. Everybody.  2) The government spends tax money responsibly. 

Oh, you assure me. Well, that's convincing.

 

Flat taxes fail just under the slightest inspection because it's going to give more money to the people who don't need it (the rich) and take more money from the people who need it most (the poor). It's basic math. You're literally advocating for a system that will take money from people who need it to feed, house, and clothe themselves and giving it to millionaires and billionaires.

[B.B. Hemingway]

1 minute ago, RedDenver said:

I didn't say it was easy or that Musk wasn't a tireless worker. But there are many, many tireless workers out there, many probably at Tesla not getting but the teeniest, tiniest fraction of what Musk is making. But regardless, none of that means Musk should get absurd wealth.

 

I don't think people really appreciate how much money he's worth. There are fewer than 50 countries whose GDP is more than Musk's wealth: https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/countries-by-gdp

 

There are 164 countries on that list with GDP less than $250 billion and only 47 with more. But yes, let's defend the guy paying 4% of his net worth and 11% of his annual increase in worth.

 

Oh, you assure me. Well, that's convincing.

 

Flat taxes fail just under the slightest inspection because it's going to give more money to the people who don't need it (the rich) and take more money from the people who need it most (the poor). It's basic math. You're literally advocating for a system that will take money from people who need it to feed, house, and clothe themselves and giving it to millionaires and billionaires.

 

It wouldn't fail. You just wouldn't like it. There's a difference there. Rich people would still be paying almost all of the tax money being paid in. They'd still be paying more in property taxes, etc. It's just a matter of what a person considers fair. I see nothing unfair about a family who makes $60k paying $12k in taxes and a family making $600k paying $120k, for example. And again, most of this would be closer to irrelevant if the government were fiscally responsible. Which they're not. Not even close. 

[NM11046]

14 minutes ago, B.B. Hemingway said:

 

It wouldn't fail. You just wouldn't like it. There's a difference there. Rich people would still be paying almost all of the tax money being paid in. They'd still be paying more in property taxes, etc. It's just a matter of what a person considers fair. I see nothing unfair about a family who makes $60k paying $12k in taxes and a family making $600k paying $120k, for example. And again, most of this would be closer to irrelevant if the government were fiscally responsible. Which they're not. Not even close. 

Do we really think that taxes are paid because the government is poor at budgeting?  Isn't it to pay for things we all use (i.e. infrastructure) and to pay for schools, healthcare, in addition to military?  

[knapplc]

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing regular people to defend billionaires.

[RedDenver]

12 hours ago, B.B. Hemingway said:

 

It wouldn't fail. You just wouldn't like it. There's a difference there. Rich people would still be paying almost all of the tax money being paid in. They'd still be paying more in property taxes, etc. It's just a matter of what a person considers fair. I see nothing unfair about a family who makes $60k paying $12k in taxes and a family making $600k paying $120k, for example.

There's a reason no country with a large economy has a flat tax. Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia tried flat taxes after communism ended. It worked for about a decade, then that failed and none have a flat tax today.

 

12 hours ago, B.B. Hemingway said:

And again, most of this would be closer to irrelevant if the government were fiscally responsible. Which they're not. Not even close. 

This is a separate argument. Even if the government were "fiscally responsible", the math doesn't change for how flat taxes affect the poor vs the rich.

[Guy Chamberlin]

17 hours ago, B.B. Hemingway said:

 

 

 

And subsidies aren't exclusive to Elon Musk. There are plenty of us hard working Americans that benefit from government subsidies, contracts, and programs.

 

 

Well yeah. That's the rub. Plenty of hard working Americans benefit from government subsidies, contracts, and programs, then declare themselves anti-government when the money goes to people who aren't them.  

[Guy Chamberlin]

I have no desire to undercut what Elon Musk has done as a businessman. He's been shrewd and daring while operating at an extremely high bar of automobile manufacturing, space travel, and the monetary system itself. I don't mind that he's eccentric (autistic, actually) and brings the name and temperament of a Bond villain. He generally makes life more interesting, and we could use that. He'd have a lot less bad press if he could stay off Twitter, but he understands that choice.

 

But I will agree that the "I built that!" cry of entrepreneurs rarely takes into account the taxpayer funded infrastructure they built on top of, including huge investments by the Department of Energy, Department of Defense, NASA and others that continue to provide both R&D and intellectual property that no private company could afford by itself. 

Pay the 11 billion, pat yourself on the back. Move on.

 

America has always been a marriage of convenience between Big Government and Private Capital and the people who want us to choose one side have no idea what that would really look like. 

[nic]

Low police moral led to even more departures than expected. Exit interviews stated lack of appreciation  and support. If I was a cop in Burlington, I would ask for double the salary and a signing bonus to come back.

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/burlington-vermont-defunded-police-force-s-happened-rcna8409?cid=sm_npd_nn_tw_ma