NM11046 Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 10 hours ago, nic said: This is absolutely a struggle for everyone. Christians included. I remember when my Dad died of cancer (second go around). I got a call around February (many years ago) and was told he was going off the treatments. They were only going to extend his life not save it. He decided the chemo was just making him more miserable so why bother. Of course the family was praying for healing, and some of my siblings were convinced it was going to work, myself included. He passed away in July of the same year. The prayers may not have achieved the desired result, but many other things happened that were incredible. Don’t have the time or the room to tell the stories here, butI remember praying with my dad about a variety of things in person and on the phone. That hadn’t happened until then. We had a lot of discussions during that time….about life the universe and everything I guess. It was a very difficult time, but I would not change it for anything. My dad was healed, just not in the way that most of us expected. Many people were changed…for the better I think. When you believe in terms of the eternal, death is a looked at differently. I understand that many in the political thread do not buy it. I get it. That is very much OK. I understand that “eternal results” have been abused in many awful ways that have justifiably pissed and turned people off. I can’t argue with that, I just believe that the kid that dies of leukemia is not less worthy. This is really beautiful Nic, thank you for sharing. Here's where I have questions though, and I ask this with much respect to your situation above. Do you think it was the prayers that made this happen or the fact that you (and he) recognized that his time was limited and life conversations and moments together were appreciated more and happened more openly? Because if so I'd think those of us who might not believe in god wouldn't have the same experience you describe, and we (or at least I) do. I think prayer and god get a lot of credit for human nature and simple timing. I'm not sure that I'll say this in any sort of pc way, but I think that some folks are ok with thinking things just happen and others want to think that there's someone pulling the ropes to make it happen and that there's a reason for it (good or bad). 3 Link to comment
Guy Chamberlin Posted January 9, 2023 Author Share Posted January 9, 2023 As a lifelong agnostic, I believe in church as a place for communities to come together to reflect on life and our shared existence. I also believe in prayer as a moment to acknowledge what we can and can't control, and to ask God or the Universe for help if needed because who knows? Maybe prayer is simply taking stock in a situation that makes us consider the preciousness of life. I also think we should pray when something really good happens, because the God I envision would think that was sweet of us. 2 1 1 Link to comment
nic Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 On 1/9/2023 at 3:51 AM, NM11046 said: This is really beautiful Nic, thank you for sharing. Here's where I have questions though, and I ask this with much respect to your situation above. Do you think it was the prayers that made this happen or the fact that you (and he) recognized that his time was limited and life conversations and moments together were appreciated more and happened more openly? Because if so I'd think those of us who might not believe in god wouldn't have the same experience you describe, and we (or at least I) do. I think prayer and god get a lot of credit for human nature and simple timing. I'm not sure that I'll say this in any sort of pc way, but I think that some folks are ok with thinking things just happen and others want to think that there's someone pulling the ropes to make it happen and that there's a reason for it (good or bad). I would have to share the details in the story which is way too long to type. I tried to summarize. I doubt for some it would make a difference Link to comment
nic Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 On 1/9/2023 at 11:56 AM, Guy Chamberlin said: As a lifelong agnostic, I believe in church as a place for communities to come together to reflect on life and our shared existence. I also believe in prayer as a moment to acknowledge what we can and can't control, and to ask God or the Universe for help if needed because who knows? Maybe prayer is simply taking stock in a situation that makes us consider the preciousness of life. I also think we should pray when something really good happens, because the God I envision would think that was sweet of us. There are lots of ways to look at. I know folks that give thanks for finding a good parking spot let alone being in remission. 1 Link to comment
TGHusker Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 On 1/10/2023 at 3:07 PM, nic said: There are lots of ways to look at. I know folks that give thanks for finding a good parking spot let alone being in remission. St Paul encouraged us to pray without ceasing - that would include parking lots and cancer and everything in between. I think the best part of prayer is that it CAN change us even if it doesn't change the situation we are praying for. That surrendered Trust Of "NOT MY WILL BUT YOUR WILL BE DONE" has a way of changing us and making us a better person. Humility is the starting place of effective prayer. Effective prayer doesn't mean prayer answered in the way we desired either. 1 1 Link to comment
Guy Chamberlin Posted January 12, 2023 Author Share Posted January 12, 2023 It's hard to look at the world around us and not see a natural order in beautiful, inter-connected alignment. It's also hard not to see a lot of chance and chaos. The reason I'm good staying agnostic is that I think it's healthy to admit when we don't know. 1 Link to comment
knapplc Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 Never saw the original, but Peter Gabriel's soundtrack was amazing. Link to comment
ZRod Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 2 minutes ago, knapplc said: Never saw the original, but Peter Gabriel's soundtrack was amazing. How can we have a sequel if he hasn't even come back yet? 1 Link to comment
knapplc Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 2 minutes ago, ZRod said: How can we have a sequel if he hasn't even come back yet? It's going to be a ten minute show of his appearances to the two Marys and to the Disciples, then ascending into heaven to never set foot on Earth again, since all the bad things here have ended after his sacrifice on the cross. 1 Link to comment
TGHusker Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 3 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said: It's hard to look at the world around us and not see a natural order in beautiful, inter-connected alignment. It's also hard not to see a lot of chance and chaos. The reason I'm good staying agnostic is that I think it's healthy to admit when we don't know. People of faith say the same thing. If we knew it all, wouldn't that make us God? But we walk by faith (which has the element of the unknown otherwise there is no need for faith) and not by sight. 2Corithians 5:7 (chapter 5 is a good read throughout) & Hebrews 12:1-6. Yes, we Christians are good at our Systematic Theologies (ST) - Christianity is known for its 'knowledge base' and histories. But the problem wt STs is that it nicely wraps God up into a bow and boxes him into a corner in our mind (He must do this or act this way) and it isn't long before we lose the "awe and wonder' of a transcendent God. While he is knowable, he can't be known but only in part (Romans chapter 1 touches on this - the just shall live by faith and later where Paul notes that nature reveals this God to us as well). Paul said in the love chapter, 1 Corintians 13 - that we see only in part. The only knowledge that really matters is the head knowledge (which ST can help with) that gets to the heart and becomes transformative. STs are like a safety blanket we tuck under to protect our would view. The Jewish leaders of the old testiment had many of these blankets - but yet their heart was far from God. Their STs replaced relationship and faith. So yes, we all only know in part. We are all on a journey. It is healthy to say "I don't know" " You have made us for yourself, and our heart is restless until it rests in you." — Augustine 1 Link to comment
Guy Chamberlin Posted January 12, 2023 Author Share Posted January 12, 2023 13 minutes ago, TGHusker said: People of faith say the same thing. If we knew it all, wouldn't that make us God? But we walk by faith (which has the element of the unknown otherwise there is no need for faith) and not by sight. 2Corithians 5:7 (chapter 5 is a good read throughout) & Hebrews 12:1-6. Yes, we Christians are good at our Systematic Theologies (ST) - Christianity is known for its 'knowledge base' and histories. But the problem wt STs is that it nicely wraps God up into a bow and boxes him into a corner in our mind (He must do this or act this way) and it isn't long before we lose the "awe and wonder' of a transcendent God. While he is knowable, he can't be known but only in part (Romans chapter 1 touches on this - the just shall live by faith and later where Paul notes that nature reveals this God to us as well). Paul said in the love chapter, 1 Corintians 13 - that we see only in part. The only knowledge that really matters is the head knowledge (which ST can help with) that gets to the heart and becomes transformative. STs are like a safety blanket we tuck under to protect our would view. The Jewish leaders of the old testiment had many of these blankets - but yet their heart was far from God. Their STs replaced relationship and faith. So yes, we all only know in part. We are all on a journey. It is healthy to say "I don't know" " You have made us for yourself, and our heart is restless until it rests in you." — Augustine Nice post. I use "agnostic" to say "I don't know" but I think the true meaning of the term is that some subjects will always remain unknowable. 1 Link to comment
BigRedBuster Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 11 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said: Nice post. I use "agnostic" to say "I don't know" but I think the true meaning of the term is that some subjects will always remain unknowable. Yes. There are just some things that we will never know. And, that is true if you're atheist, agnostic, Christian, Muslim, Hindu....whatever. Link to comment
TGHusker Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 1 hour ago, Guy Chamberlin said: Nice post. I use "agnostic" to say "I don't know" but I think the true meaning of the term is that some subjects will always remain unknowable. agreed Link to comment
Guy Chamberlin Posted January 12, 2023 Author Share Posted January 12, 2023 1 minute ago, TGHusker said: agreed And yet I still feel I'm due some explanations upon my demise. Link to comment
TGHusker Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 6 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said: And yet I still feel I'm due some explanations upon my demise. It will all be made clear then - so rest and 'go forward my brother in peace" I Corinthians 13:12 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. Link to comment
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