Parkland, FL High School Shooting

[Ric Flair]

6 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

I'm not saying we can't have armed guards at schools. That's simply not the most effective solution, not the solution that any other first-world country does, and there is no evidence that armed guards at schools will prevent, stop, or even slow down the rate at which gun violence occurs at schools.

 

There was an armed guard on campus at the time of the Parkland shooting.  He was ineffective at stopping the killer from ending 17 lives.  Armed guards are not necessarily the answer. 

 

Maybe the answer is MORE armed guards. Having one for a large multi-building campus with thousands of students seems like it may be insufficient. Who knows. In any event, it’s worth looking at as an option.

[commando]

1 minute ago, Ric Flair said:

 

Maybe the answer is MORE armed guards. Having one for a large multi-building campus with thousands of students seems like it may be insufficient. Who knows. In any event, it’s worth looking at as an option.

hell...why bother with guards.  arm the students.

[knapplc]

Just now, Ric Flair said:

The SPLC is incredibly controversial for the reasons I stated. They include conservative groups they simply disagree with as hate groups. I apologize if You simply don’t know that because Rachel Maddow has never mentioned it to you.

 

The SPLC has specific guidelines, which they publish and are open about, that describe why they label groups the way they do. 

 

And the Rachel Maddow comment is silly. I don't have cable and have never watched Rachel Maddow.

 

Just now, Ric Flair said:

There aren’t great sources from OPS directly, because the curriculum is controversial and they would prefer the parents not know the details. That was a source of major controversy when the curriculum was being debated. OPS was intentionally vague and refused to provide details.

 

 

 

There are great sources from OPS.  It's on OPS website, in handouts, in news articles, etc.  Relying on hate groups like massresistance.org to describe what OPS is doing when you can just go to their website, attend public forums, and speak to school administrators tells a story of where and how some people like to get their information. 

 

It's more a mirror than anything. 

4 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

 

Maybe the answer is MORE armed guards. Having one for a large multi-building campus with thousands of students seems like it may be insufficient. Who knows. In any event, it’s worth looking at as an option.

 

OR, we could do what every other first-world nation has done and not reinvent the wheel.

[Guy Chamberlin]

4 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

 

Well that took roughly 5 seconds to find and post.

 

https://newrepublic.com/article/125498/its-time-ban-guns-yes-them

 

I'm going to put that one in the same bin as the congressman who holds up a snowball to prove that global warming is a hoax.

 

Some -- maybe many -- non-gun owners simply can't understand owning guns and want them to all go away. But virtually none of the post-atrocity debates or proposed legislation suggests taking away existing handguns, and most don't even attempt to take away existing paramilitary arsenals. Most people simply want to discuss getting stricter with background checks, addressing mental illness, making it harder to procure magazines, caliber and automatic weaponry that outgun our own police forces. When the NRA fights even the discussion -- much less some simple, common sense regulations they used to advocate -- you really can't claim the irrationality is coming from the left. And on this issue, I'm seeing the left stretch well across the center among my lifelong friends. 

 

Under the 8 years of Barack Obama's presidency, more guns and ammunition were sold than any time in American history. Not once in those eight years did Obama propose anything resembling a ban. In fact, according to NRA metrics, Obama chalked up a perfect NRA rating. Wayne LaPierre was quick to explain this as a trap: Obama was laying in wait for NRA members to get complacent before sending in his black helicopters to seize their guns. 

 

Plenty of irrationality to go around. But Wayne LaPierre's bulls#!t is starting to wear thin with a lot of decent and well-informed Americans.

 

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

12 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

 

Maybe the answer is MORE armed guards. Having one for a large multi-building campus with thousands of students seems like it may be insufficient. Who knows. In any event, it’s worth looking at as an option.

 

 

Pretty sure the budget for multiple full-time armed guards at 100,000 public schools will have to come out of readin', writin' & rithmatic. If you're okay with that.

 

The anal sex budget is surprisingly small. 

[Enhance]

25 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Maybe the answer is MORE armed guards. Having one for a large multi-building campus with thousands of students seems like it may be insufficient. Who knows. In any event, it’s worth looking at as an option.

So, anal sex and school buses are financial deterrents to paying for multiple armed guards at roughly 100,000 public schools across the U.S. and the roughly 34,000 private schools?

[Ric Flair]

23 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

The SPLC has specific guidelines, which they publish and are open about, that describe why they label groups the way they do. 

 

And the Rachel Maddow comment is silly. I don't have cable and have never watched Rachel Maddow.

 

 

 

 

There are great sources from OPS.  It's on OPS website, in handouts, in news articles, etc.  Relying on hate groups like massresistance.org to describe what OPS is doing when you can just go to their website, attend public forums, and speak to school administrators tells a story of where and how some people like to get their information. 

 

It's more a mirror than anything. 

 

OR, we could do what every other first-world nation has done and not reinvent the wheel.

 

Calling any group you hate a “hate group” is the same BS the SPLC does. Please explain why according to the SPLC, the Alliance Defending Freedom is a hate group, but Antifa is not. I look forward to chuckling at your response.

 

OPS is a joke. It’s the Venezuela of public school districts. How many administrators over there make more than $100k a year? How many teachers make less than $40k? How much do they spend busing kids all over? How much of that money could be better spent getting their graduation rates above their current abysmal levels? Sadder still is that so many of their graduates are functionally illiterate. It’s a complete joke. But hey, they do know how to put condoms on cucumbers. That’s a transferable job skill. 

Just now, Enhance said:

So, anal sex and school buses are financial deterrents to paying for multiple armed guards at roughly 100,000 public schools across the U.S. and the roughly 34,000 private schools?

 

Spending millions of dollars busing kids all over town and millions more teaching a highly controversial sexual education program seems like a questionable use of taxpayer dollars.

[knapplc]

2 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Calling any group you hate a “hate group” is the same BS the SPLC does. Please explain why according to the SPLC, the Alliance Defending Freedom is a hate group, but Antifa is not. I look forward to chuckling at your response.

 

How about you go to SPLC's website and see for yourself?  They speak about both groups on their site.  Education is a wonderful thing.  Educate yourself. 

 

3 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

OPS is a joke. It’s the Venezuela of public school districts. How many administrators over there make more than $100k a year? How many teachers make less than $40k? How much do they spend busing kids all over? How much of that money could be better spent getting their graduation rates above their current abysmal levels? Sadder still is that so many of their graduates are functionally illiterate. It’s a complete joke. But hey, they do know how to put condoms on cucumbers. That’s a transferable job skill. 

 

You realize the answer to each of the questions in bold is available online, free of charge, right? Why do you ask these questions when you can just google it for yourself?

 

Basic research is a transferable job skill. Try it.

[BigRedBuster]

33 minutes ago, knapplc said:

There are great sources from OPS.  It's on OPS website, in handouts, in news articles, etc.  Relying on hate groups like massresistance.org to describe what OPS is doing when you can just go to their website, attend public forums, and speak to school administrators tells a story of where and how some people like to get their information. 

 

 

It's just easier to read propaganda.

[BigRedBuster]

29 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

Under the 8 years of Barack Obama's presidency, more guns and ammunition were sold than any time in American history. Not once in those eight years did Obama propose anything resembling a ban. In fact, according to NRA metrics, Obama chalked up a perfect NRA rating. Wayne LaPierre was quick to explain this as a trap: Obama was laying in wait for NRA members to get complacent before sending in his black helicopters to seize their guns. 

Great marketing by the gun manufacturers.....

Edited February 22, 2018 by BigRedBuster

[Enhance]

8 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Spending millions of dollars busing kids all over town and millions more teaching a highly controversial sexual education program seems like a questionable use of taxpayer dollars.

 

Moving on, the average armed security guard makes a $36,000/year. There are 100,000 public schools. Let's say you hire three guards for each school.

 

That's $10.8 billion. Fornication and schoolchildren transportation aren't going to cover that cost.

[knapplc]

1 minute ago, BigRedBuster said:

It's just easier to read propaganda.

 

Especially when you find the kind that jives with your preconceived notions like "OPS is the Venezuela of public school districts." 

 

That's a special kind of bias that doesn't lend itself to rational discussion, that's what that is. 

[Guy Chamberlin]

I come from a family of teachers and have lifelong teacher friends. There are many, many hardworking teachers who get frustrated by both the Teachers Union and overpaid School Administrators, and fly-by-night experiments with the curriculum. I don't like the attempt by the Right to demonize teachers who are often dealing with the same issues as every business with a hierarchy. bureaucracy and misallocated budgets. Of all the things we don't need right now it's treating school teachers as the enemy. 

[teachercd]

2 hours ago, knapplc said:

 

This ongoing demonstration of an inability to grasp the basic points of other opinions is admirable in its consistency. 

I agree but just keep working at it.

Edited February 22, 2018 by teachercd

[sho]

This may have been discussed and I missed it in the thread, those in favor, help me understand these things so I can see the benefit of armed teachers or guards at a school.  Here are my concerns, if these can be addressed great, arm the school

 

1--How does this help us prevent another Las Vegas shooting?  Or Orlando nightclub shooting?  Or Texas church shooting?   All of these weapons, if I remember correctly were obtained legally.   Those tragedies, in my opinion/guess will increase if schools get better protection.

 

2--Statistics vary, but the best I've seen, in a shootout situation police accuracy rate is under 40%.   Do we think a teacher is going to do any better?  Teachers want to educate, they don't want to be taking down psychopaths.   And most experts will tell you, a hand gun versus an AR15, handgun will lose 9 out of 10 times.  

 

3--How is this going to be funded?   Trump in his last budget cut education funding.  How are we going to fund this when teachers are already having to use personal funds to stock classroom for much needed school supplies.  Wouldn't the budget be better served ensuring there are enough supplies and getting banning semi-automatic rifles?

 

4--Do we really want our kids to become comfortable in a mini-prison?  Armed guards, government provided meals, limited time in the yard in a locked/secured facility.   For profit prisons (is another debate) is another problem in the US, do we want to condition children to know how to live in a prison?

 

My thoughts for a solution:

 

1--Ban semi-automatic rifles.  There's no need for anyone in society to have one.   Manufactures stop making them.  Figure out some sort of buy back program and get registered weapons off the street. 

 

2--Secure all schools (because I'm not naive enough to believe that banning them gets them off the street) with bullet proof glass at all entrances and during the school day all entrances are locked.  The only way into the school from the public would then be by the office to be checked in.  Yes, that still leaves kids vulnerable at recess and PE, but will keep more kids safe in general.

 

3--Mandatory 1 week waiting period on the purchase of any other type of gun with a much more stringent back ground check.  Heavy fines for those areas that fail to report correctly (cough military for not reporting the domestic abuse with the TX shooter  cough).  Gun shows immediate purchases are no longer allowed.  Private sales can still be done.  Buyer must have a license (which would require the background check) seller would need to confirm buyer had one and both buyer and seller need to transfer ownership of that gun through the city/county.  Failure of seller to confirm buyer has a license results in major fine.

 

4--Much like cigarettes, create a heavy tax on the sale of bullets.   If you want to shoot them, it's going to cost a lot more and that tax goes to help fund better mental health facilities in the state of sale and hospitals that help victims of gun violence to help off-set that cost.   

 

 

I'm not saying this will end mass shootings, but I think if we can go this route, the amount of mass shootings and gun violence in general, will decrease greatly.   Then we can start focusing on some of the other issues that led to the mass shooting, mainly better mental health care.

 

 

And for those who can't live without their semi-automatic rifles, I think I could compromise and allow them in 2 places.  Gun ranges and hunting reserves.   Those two businesses would then be monitored for the security of the weapons.