2019 P&R Tanget Thread

[funhusker]

8 hours ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

Pay attention

I’m sure there is good people on both sides 

[Ulty]

9 hours ago, Enhance said:

Attack the poster and not the poster

 

We can't possibly follow both of these instructions at once. Are we supposed to flip a coin?

 

[TGHusker]

19 hours ago, NebraskaShellback said:

Sure, she had to pay Trump money after the hearing and he knew nothing about the pay to her. Ask Cohen, he lied.

Why ask Cohen if he lied.   Not much of a defense.   Cohen had nothing to gain with his testimony. He's already been convicted and now he is repentant and wants to set the story straight - for the country's sake and for the sake of his family.   I saw a broken man on the stage. He had no reason to lie again and every reason not to(his family and his family name) - no need to add more jail time on top of jail time.

[TGHusker]

19 hours ago, NebraskaShellback said:

One day you will understand. Do the research to prove me wrong. 

 

I'm a bit late to this discussion so I been doing a bit of this: 

This is why I am sooooooooo glad I gave up 'talk radio' a few years ago.   But for the grace of God, so go I.....

 

We are seeing an example of the Cult of Trump in action here.  Nothing personal here Shelback but I think you have some shell shock going on here. You may have been shocked by the actions of the previous admin because it deeply violated your cultural sensitivities, but you are showing signs of belonging to a cult - denial, misrepresentation of the facts, conspiracy, etc.

When I was in college I saw some good friends get entangled into a cult and many are still in the same group.  A cult can be political as well.  When we start closing our ears to others and do not consider the views of others and esp the views of those who are on the opposite side of the coin, we are at risk.  It doesn't mean we have to believe like others but it is more a matter of being open for the purpose of understanding.    Some of these same characteristics from the article below  can be found in the Cult of Trump.  My comments are in red.

 

https://medium.com/@zelphontheshelf/10-signs-youre-probably-in-a-cult-1921eb5a3857

Cults aren’t as easy to spot as you might think. Most cults don’t wear robes or live in communes. In fact, most cult members don’t even realize they’re in a cult.

During my 25 years as an unwitting cult member, I would often watch documentaries and read about other cults. As I researched, I noticed 10 specific patterns that helped me recognize that I myself was in a cult:

1. The leader is the ultimate authority
If you’re not allowed to criticize your leader, even if the criticism is true, you’re probably in a cult. 

Cults begin with a charismatic leader who claims some supreme knowledge. They may call themselves a prophet, messiah, messenger, or an enlightened teacher. They can also be CEOs, military officials, politicians, and self-help gurus.

Cult leaders convince members to forfeit their critical thinking ability in return for a sense of belonging, authority, and purpose. To members, it doesn’t matter what the evidence or logic may suggest, the leader is always right, and their misdeeds are always justified. Criticism of the leader is forbidden.

This fits Trump to a "T".  He cannot be criticized.  All news is fake news unless it is Fox News as long as Fox News reports it the way he wants it.  Trump's MO is to cut people down who oppose him and he will do so pro-activiely, un-provoked by his target. 

2. The group suppresses skepticism
If you’re only allowed to study your organization through approved sources, you’re probably in a cult.

Cults view critical thinking as an infectious disease and every effort is made to suppress it. Doubting members are encouraged to isolate themselves from outside influences and focus solely on the doctrine of the cult.

Criticism is forbidden. People who contradict the group are viewed as persecutors and are often given labels like “anti,” “apostate,” or “suppressive person.” Members are discouraged from consuming any material that is critical of the group.

What is true of Trump is true of Trump supporters. They do not consider the evidence, regardless of how overwhelming it may be.  Ex-supporters who wise up, are beaten verbally for leaving the group and presenting the inside story of what it was like being in the cult.  Trump supports do not confront the facts being presented but confront the messenger - the former Trump supporter.  The GOP in the resent hearings wt Cohen was a prime example.  They could not destroy the facts so they sought to discredit the messenger. That was their full defense. Worse off, they should have been seeking truth.  But Cult members don't seek truth when they think they have all of the truth already. 

3. The group delegitimizes former members
If you can’t think of a legitimate reason for leaving your group, you’re probably in a cult.

Because the cult considers itself the ultimate authority on truth, it can’t imagine anybody leaving it with their integrity intact. Thus, it has to perpetuate a false narrative that former members were deceived, proud, immoral, or lazy.

If former members speak out, they are dismissed as bitter, angry, dishonest or evil. Cults often impose some kind of shunning to shame former members and prevent them from infecting other members with the truth.

See my comments in # 2 above.   More on the GOP.  As most of you know, I was a lifer GOP (except that one vote for Sen McGovern in the SD senate race in 1976).  I was never so ashamed of the GOP as I was watching the Cohen testimony.  They should have been asking questions that got to the truth - they could have done so without trying to destroy Cohen as a person. 

4. The group is paranoid about the outside world
If your group insists the end of the world is near, you’re probably in a cult.

Cults position themselves as the sole refuge from an evil outside world that is intent on their destruction. Cults thrive on conspiracy theories, catastrophic thinking, and persecution complexes.

In an effort to draw in more paying members, cults are often very aggressive in their recruitment efforts which are usually justified as “saving” people from the evil world. Those who reject the cult’s message are unelect, prideful, evil, or stupid.

Trump at the GOP convention sets himself up as the "only one' who can solve today's problems.  The 'only one' who can fix the swamp.  So not only does Trump have this "Messiah" complex but his supporters build this complex up every day. Trump wants to save all of us from immigrants, legal or illegal, from all of the bad deals that all of the previous presidents have made, etc.  While I believe in a border wall of some kind and that security must be a part of immigration reform, Trump has made the wall the holy grail of his admin.  It must be protected at all cost for it is protecting us from the mean world outside of those walls.   

5. The group relies on shame cycles
If you need your group in order to feel worthy, loved, or sufficient, you’re probably in a cult.

Cult leaders trap members in shame cycles by imposing abnormally strict codes of conduct (usually prescriptions about diet, appearance, sex, relationships, media), guilting members for their shortcomings, and then positioning themselves as the unique remedy to the feelings of guilt which they themselves created.

Cult members are made to believe they are insufficient or unworthy on their own and that the only way to become worthy is to confess their shortcomings to the group or leader. The leader then becomes the meditiator of worthiness and the foundation of the member’s self esteem.

Leaders who can make followers feel bad about anything can use shame to manipulate followers into doing anything, even if it’s against their own self-interest or better judgment.

Some of us come from conservative families and we have conservative friends - and we too are conservative.  However, I know @BigRedBuster has commented on this before, it is difficult to talk to family and friends, even as a conservative about Trump.  Never Trumpers who may agree with some of Trump's policies are shamed because they don't believe in the Cult leader himself.  If we dare point out his unfitness for the office (too many things to mentioned on that now), his unprofessionalism, his lack of seriousness, and his ethical deficiencies (and criminality), we are immediately shamed and labeled as infidels. 

6. The leader is above the law
If you’re held to a different moral standard, specifically in regard to sex, you’re probably in a cult.

A prevalent idea among cult leaders is that they are above the law, be it human or divine. This idea allows them to exploit their followers economically and sexually without repercussions.

When confronted, they do not confess, but create justifications for their impropriety. Sexual grooming of members is common. Loyal cult members will perform any amount of “mental gymnastics” to justify or ignore the leader’s behavior.

Really do I need to comment on this  This is all to evident to anyone with an open mind.  I added the bold to the 'without repercussions.  The way Trump did business, the way he did his taxes, his foundation, his family life/marriages -  The fact that he said he never had a reason to ask for forgiveness (in response to a question during the election if he's asked God for forgiveness).  Nothing more needs to be said.

7. The group uses “thought reform” methods
If your serious questions are answered with cliches, you’re probably in a cult.

Indoctrination or “brainwashing” is the process through which a cult slowly breaks down a person’s sense of identity and ability to think rationally. Behaviors like excessive fasting, prayer, hypnosis, scripture reading, chanting, meditation, or drug usage can all be used to increase a person’s vulnerability to the leader’s suggestions.

The hallmark of indoctrination is the use of thought-terminating cliches. Platitudes like “follow the leader” or “doubt your doubts” are regurgitated over and over so that members don’t have to critically analyze complex issues.

Critical analysis skills are greatly missing wt Trump followers. They don't have to believe the more liberal side of the press.  They don't have to leave their conservative political convictions to be able to analyze what is going on.  They just have to be independent thinkers - free of the cult propaganda handed down by Trump, FoxNews etc.

8. The group is elitist
If your group is the solution for all the world’s problems, you’re probably in a cult.

Cults see themselves as the enlightened, chosen, and elect organization tasked with radically transforming individual lives and the entire world.

This elitism creates greater sense of group unity and responsibility centered on a united purpose. However, this sense of responsibility is often manipulated by cult leaders who coerce members into risky financial behavior, sexual favors, free manual labor, or heightened recruitment efforts in order to “further the cause.”

See # 4 above.  Trump says and thinks no one can solve today's problems but himself.  He portrays himself as the smartest man in the room (how many times has  he said how great he is or how he is smarter than all of the generals, etc - beyond counting).  The Cult also portrays Trump policies (doctrines of faith) as the only way to solve our problems. 

9. There is no financial transparency
If you’re not allowed to know what the group does with their money, you’re probably in a cult.

A group that refuses to disclose its finances is a huge red flag. Ethical organizations have nothing to hide. Cult leaders tend to live opulently while their followers are required to make financial sacrifices. Members are often encouraged to pay their offerings even if it means putting their families at risk.

Where are those Trump income tax reports .  Enough said.  Yet Trump is above the law (# 6 above) so they aren't released and since he has a cult following, no one inside his cult demands the release since they aren't practicing critical thinking skills.  And besides the Cult leader cannot be questioned.

10. The group performs secret rites
If there are secret teachings or ceremonies you didn’t discover until after you joined, you’re probably in a cult.

Cults use secret rituals as rites of passage that solidify a member’s loyalty to the group. Initiation into these rites usually only comes after a member has undergone certain tests or made adequate financial contributions.

Often, cult initiations are confusing, bizarre, or even offensive. This mental dissonance between their sense of confusion and their loyalty to the “inner circle” convinces the initiate to double their efforts in order to properly appreciate the proceedings. This only further entrenches them in a shame cycle, making them even more susceptible to manipulation.

Maybe anything MAGA, that hand gesture.   I haven't seen a Nazi salute yet    but if he is re-elected who knows what will occur.  Also, if he isn't reelected, what will be the response of his admin and his followers - I can see it being challenged and Trump refusing to leave the office. 

[BigRedBuster]

@TGHusker Good post.

 

I will also add on #1,2 and 7.  The GOP's attack on education and science.  Anyone who dares teach something that goes against their doctrine, must be squashed and ridiculed as radical, fake, liberal, conspiracy, unAmerican...etc.

 

[RedDenver]

3 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

@TGHusker Good post.

 

I will also add on #1,2 and 7.  The GOP's attack on education and science.  Anyone who dares teach something that goes against their doctrine, must be squashed and ridiculed as radical, fake, liberal, conspiracy, unAmerican...etc.

 

I whole concept that universities are indoctrination centers for liberals is just bonkers.

[BigRedBuster]

Not all these posts are a "tangent".

[Moiraine]

10 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

Not all these posts are a "tangent".

 

 

They’re mostly unrelated to the topic which was derailed, though. Thanks to shell.

[BigRedBuster]

1 minute ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

They’re mostly unrelated to the topic which was derailed, though. Thanks to shell.

The first part wasn't that was talking about the list and why Ivanka wasn't on the list.

 

Maybe Knapp just thought his post in the thread was the most important and the only one pertinent to the subject.  

[Moiraine]

Just now, BigRedBuster said:

The first part wasn't that was talking about the list and why Ivanka wasn't on the list.

 

Maybe Knapp just thought his post in the thread was the most important and the only one pertinent to the subject.  

 

 

It’s just turned into s#!t. Better to start fresh. 

[TGHusker]

42 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

@TGHusker Good post.

 

I will also add on #1,2 and 7.  The GOP's attack on education and science.  Anyone who dares teach something that goes against their doctrine, must be squashed and ridiculed as radical, fake, liberal, conspiracy, unAmerican...etc.

 

I agree.    Let truth stand on its own 2 feet. Eventually it will rise to the top.  Sometimes science  get's it wrong to begin with but we keep researching and then science get's it right.  We don't need to repress.  If the truth doesn't line up with our own set of facts, then double check your facts or be patient for the rest of the story to develop.  Someone wisely said (speaking of cults again and applicable here) "Beware of half truths, you may have the wrong half."     Education should be encouraged in all areas. 

[knapplc]

30 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

The first part wasn't that was talking about the list and why Ivanka wasn't on the list.

 

Maybe Knapp just thought his post in the thread was the most important and the only one pertinent to the subject.  

 

 

My apologies. I don't have access to the Mod tools anymore, or I'd have moved the good discussion over to the new thread. All I could do was retitle this mess and start a new thread. Yours, TGHusker's and several other posts should be moved over there, but I can't do it. 

 

I reported this thread yesterday, and I can't remember if I asked the garbage to be removed or not, but I never heard back from the team. So I thought it would be easier for everyone if I just started fresh.

[Cdog923]

22 hours ago, Enhance said:

Attack the poster and not the poster, everyone. Please keep things civil regardless of how you view another person's opinion.

 

Either keep the discussion honest or don't take part in it at all.

 

[TGHusker]

Since this is now that tangent thread - I'll throw these out here:

 

Different takes on AOC

 

Bad a... great  should be a future Presidential candidate

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/cnn-panel-of-democratic-voters-go-nuts-over-bad-a$$-aoc-she-is-the-candidate-of-the-future/

 

to potential campaign finance criminal

https://pjmedia.com/trending/former-fec-chairman-ocasio-cortez-could-be-facing-jail-time-for-possible-campaign-finance-violation/

 

 

Thomas Sowell says socialism may eventually win out in the USA

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/mar/5/thomas-sowell-warns-us-may-not-resist-siren-song-o/

Quote

Thomas Sowell, a living legend in the field of economics, says he fears the U.S. may eventually succumb to the siren song of socialism.

The author of “Basic Economics,” “The Vision of the Anointed,” “The Quest for Cosmic Justice” and numerous other books said the U.S. may very well go down a path of financial ruin due to “wonderful-sounding” rhetoric.

 

 

[Landlord]

I fear that as well.