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2 hours ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 That's why me and Chris compared jobs where the skill level and decision making of one person is a matter of life and death for others. 

It was a bad comparison, but that’s ok.  

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I've always felt the police should be held to a higher standard of obeying the law, compared to the rest of the citizenry.   When in reality they're held to a much lower standard.

@Husker_Bohunk I would never answer if someone talked to me the way you’re talking to BRI. I’d find they aren’t worth talking to. You didn’t even attempt to approach this neutrally.

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28 minutes ago, Hedley Lamarr said:

I am actually trying to think of a job where zero bad apples exist. 

And, (non military) pilots don't have people trying to kill them when landing

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5 minutes ago, DevoHusker said:

And, (non military) pilots don't have people trying to kill them when landing

very true, I am just trying to think of any career that does not have or cannot have bad apples. Crappy people exist in all walks of life. 

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9 hours ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

I totally sympathize with good cops who hate being branded by the worst actions of bad cops, but I think Chris Rock said it best as to why this isn't likely to go away:

 

“Whenever the cops kill an innocent black man, they give the excuse, ‘Oh it’s just a few bad apples.’

Bad apples?

Some jobs can’t have bad apples.

Some jobs, everybody gotta be good.

Like … pilots.

“American Airlines can’t be like, ‘Most of our pilots like to land. We just got a few bad apples that like to crash into mountains. Please bear with us.’”

Well, I know of at least one pilot suicide with Lufthansa where the copilot crashed the plane into a mountain.

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5 hours ago, Hedley Lamarr said:

very true, I am just trying to think of any career that does not have or cannot have bad apples. Crappy people exist in all walks of life. 

 

Dang. I never thought it would be that simple but you're right. We solved it. Some cops are just bad apples.

 

There you go, folks. Everything is fixed now.

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10 hours ago, knapplc said:

 

Dang. I never thought it would be that simple but you're right. We solved it. Some cops are just bad apples.

 

There you go, folks. Everything is fixed now.

I wonder if this is adding value to the conversation and contributing to an honest discussion about the subject matter?

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17 hours ago, Hedley Lamarr said:

very true, I am just trying to think of any career that does not have or cannot have bad apples. Crappy people exist in all walks of life. 

 

You won't. No one would seriously suggest there's such a thing, just a comedian making a point  

 

The analogy is whether some professions should be granted a wider berth than others. The bad apple ratio for police officers, airline pilots, brain surgeons, and nuclear scientists should probably be lower than convenience store clerks, irrigation supply salesmen, athletes, and DMV employees. Right? They should be high for teachers,  politicians, and stock manipulators, too. Some professions are pretty strict with their own standards — you screw up and you're out. Both police and teachers have unions that close ranks and give every benefit of the doubt to the bad apple. It hurts the larger profession. And again, in the law enforcement profession those bad apples can be deadly, and that doesn't take into account the selective enforcement that lands far more minorities in prison than white folk committing the same crimes -- or worse. 

 

The worst over-reaction to a policing event shouldn't negate a real and well-documented problem that's been going on forever.

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16 hours ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

You won't. No one would seriously suggest there's such a thing, just a comedian making a point  

 

The analogy is whether some professions should be granted a wider berth than others. The bad apple ratio for police officers, airline pilots, brain surgeons, and nuclear scientists should probably be lower than convenience store clerks, irrigation supply salesmen, athletes, and DMV employees. Right? They should be high for teachers,  politicians, and stock manipulators, too. Some professions are pretty strict with their own standards — you screw up and you're out. Both police and teachers have unions that close ranks and give every benefit of the doubt to the bad apple. It hurts the larger profession. And again, in the law enforcement profession those bad apples can be deadly, and that doesn't take into account the selective enforcement that lands far more minorities in prison than white folk committing the same crimes -- or worse. 

 

The worst over-reaction to a policing event shouldn't negate a real and well-documented problem that's been going on forever.

criminal justice reform is a real thing that everyone should support. There is a vast array of things such as how we punish victimless crimes etc. that should be no brainers. When looking at police shootings statistically we are talking about what? roughly 1000 shootings annually that includes both armed and unarmed out of an estimated 50 million plus interactions with the public and the police each year regardless of race. Medical error deaths annually account for around 250,000 deaths. How many of these 1000 police shootings were justified? How many involved non-compliant civilians etc? We have all seen the videos of someone "reaching" for something and we have seen police gun downed as well. I am sure you can agree that the laziest way to look at this as a whole is "PoLiCe ArE rAcIsT". 

 

We need to understand why these happen, where they happen, how they happen. No two incidents are the same and too often our media tries to throw them all in the same bucket as fast as possible. Actually investing into communities instead of whatever we pretend our government is doing would be a good first start. Heck we as a nation voted in a president that helped to perpetuate the war on drugs and grow the size of our prison population. As we both know this disproportionately impacts minority populations for victimless crimes. 

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On 4/25/2021 at 12:16 AM, knapplc said:

 

Dang. I never thought it would be that simple but you're right. We solved it. Some cops are just bad apples.

 

There you go, folks. Everything is fixed now.

require 4 year degrees to be a police officer perhaps. I mean we require 8+ to be a doctor and they kill 250,000 annually from error so hopefully by requiring a 4 year degree the police will only kill 125,000 people a year. 

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18 hours ago, Archy1221 said:

I wonder if this is adding value to the conversation and contributing to an honest discussion about the subject matter?

Knapp is always right didn't you know? ;)

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3 hours ago, Hedley Lamarr said:

require 4 year degrees to be a police officer perhaps. I mean we require 8+ to be a doctor and they kill 250,000 annually from error so hopefully by requiring a 4 year degree the police will only kill 125,000 people a year. 

Not a bad idea. I've also often wondered if we shouldn't treat law enforcement like we would an associate's degree or a trade school certification.

 

The degree/certification would largely comprise of courses centered around criminal justice, mental health, racism/discrimination, public interaction and communication, etc. Perhaps could even incorporate some of the physical training learned in the academy. It would basically lay the groundwork for a potential LEO applicant. And much like you wouldn't expect to become a full time welder without training/certification, the same would apply to law enforcement - the chances of you getting in without that degree/foundation would be near impossible unless you had some level of acceptable, commiserate experience.

 

I'm sure there are holes to poke or pertinent questions to ask, but the gist of the idea is pretty straight forward. I do think a lot of would-be LEOs are going into criminal justice after high school to help boost the resumé but unsure. And, ultimately, formal education after high school is not a requirement to become an LEO i most places IIRC.

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4 hours ago, Hedley Lamarr said:

criminal justice reform is a real thing that everyone should support. There is a vast array of things such as how we punish victimless crimes etc. that should be no brainers. When looking at police shootings statistically we are talking about what? roughly 1000 shootings annually that includes both armed and unarmed out of an estimated 50 million plus interactions with the public and the police each year regardless of race. Medical error deaths annually account for around 250,000 deaths. How many of these 1000 police shootings were justified? How many involved non-compliant civilians etc? We have all seen the videos of someone "reaching" for something and we have seen police gun downed as well. I am sure you can agree that the laziest way to look at this as a whole is "PoLiCe ArE rAcIsT". 

 

We need to understand why these happen, where they happen, how they happen. No two incidents are the same and too often our media tries to throw them all in the same bucket as fast as possible. Actually investing into communities instead of whatever we pretend our government is doing would be a good first start. Heck we as a nation voted in a president that helped to perpetuate the war on drugs and grow the size of our prison population. As we both know this disproportionately impacts minority populations for victimless crimes. 

 

Yep.

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