knapplc Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 33 minutes ago, Redux said: Sure, but being able to decide guilt based off assumed intent sets a dangerous precedent. I don't think convicting citizen Trump over this is worth opening that can of worms. That "can of worms" was opened a couple hundred years ago in a multitude of case law. Establishing intent is a standard part of criminal proceedings. You act like this would be something new - it would be... in 1777. Link to comment
Redux Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 Just now, knapplc said: That "can of worms" was opened a couple hundred years ago in a multitude of case law. Establishing intent is a standard part of criminal proceedings. You act like this would be something new - it would be... in 1777. Establishing intent does not include assumptions based off preconceived notions being entertained as evidence. Link to comment
knapplc Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 Just now, Redux said: Establishing intent does not include assumptions based off preconceived notions being entertained as evidence. Correct. They don't make assumptions. They present evidence and build a case - as happened in trump's Impeachment and Senate trial. Link to comment
Redux Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 19 hours ago, knapplc said: Correct. They don't make assumptions. They present evidence and build a case - as happened in trump's Impeachment and Senate trial. And since the evidence was assumption based and open to interpretation, he was acquitted. 2 Link to comment
Archy1221 Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 58 minutes ago, knapplc said: If you're pretending that trump ONLY said to protest "peacefully and patriotically" ON January 6th, you're lying to yourself or you're lying to us. He said more words than that. It’s all on tape 1 Link to comment
Enhance Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 56 minutes ago, Archy1221 said: If you are trying to tell me that those protestors turned rioters listed to Trump say “come rally and protest on Jan6th” because they listen to everything he says, then decided to not listen to Trump say “peaceful and patriotically” ON January 6th I got nothing for you. That this is your viewpoint on the matter is sort of what I'm getting at and it's avoiding the elephant in the room. Set the impeachment itself aside for just a moment. Trump's actions following the election and up through Jan. 6th played the single biggest role in causing the riot, violence and death we saw at the Capitol. Agree/disagree? If you disagree, I'm curious to know what you think DID play the biggest role, considering we haven't seen something like this in any of our lifetimes. If you agree, what do you think is or should be a reasonable punishment for Trump? Link to comment
Archy1221 Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 52 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said: Archy: do you believe the 2020 election was a landslide victory for Donald Trump, but it was unfairly stolen from him? I’ve already answered this probably four times on this forum 1 Link to comment
Guy Chamberlin Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 2 minutes ago, Archy1221 said: I’ve already answered this probably four times on this forum Refresh me. Link to comment
Enhance Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 2 minutes ago, Archy1221 said: I’ve already answered this probably four times on this forum Just now, Guy Chamberlin said: Refresh me. Archy can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure he is on board with calling out Trump's lies about the claimed election fraud and doesn't believe Trump's sweeping accusations about the election being 'stolen' from him. Link to comment
Archy1221 Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 2 minutes ago, Enhance said: That this is your viewpoint on the matter is sort of what I'm getting at and it's avoiding the elephant in the room. Set the impeachment itself aside for just a moment. Trump's actions following the election and up through Jan. 6th played the single biggest role in causing the riot, violence and death we saw at the Capitol. Agree/disagree? If you disagree, I'm curious to know what you think DID play the biggest role, considering we haven't seen something like this in any of our lifetimes. If you agree, what do you think is or should be a reasonable punishment for Trump? Disagree. People have free will. The single biggest factor was the people running up to the Capitol and breaking in. If the standard is what you put into place then there is gonna be a host of Democrats impeached in 2022 including KH based on their roles in the summer riots and Bernie Sanders based on his incitement for the softball game shooter. 1 1 Link to comment
knapplc Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 1 minute ago, Archy1221 said: If the standard is what you put into place then there is gonna be a host of Democrats impeached in 2022 including KH based on their roles in the summer riots and Bernie Sanders based on his incitement for the softball game shooter. Holy false equivalencies, Batman! 1 Link to comment
Guy Chamberlin Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 2 minutes ago, Archy1221 said: Disagree. People have free will. The single biggest factor was the people running up to the Capitol and breaking in. If the standard is what you put into place then there is gonna be a host of Democrats impeached in 2022 including KH based on their roles in the summer riots and Bernie Sanders based on his incitement for the softball game shooter. My standard is that if you believe Donald Trump lied about election fraud and leaned on minor state officials to betray their duties in order to keep him office -- as apparently you do -- then you should support his impeachment. You don't even need January 6 for that. 4 Link to comment
Dr. Strangelove Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 2 hours ago, Archy1221 said: Blaming 74 million people for action of roughly 500-1000. Good luck with that argument. Those 74 million people accepted and enabled the behavior of a guy who routinely stated that he wouldn't commit to a peaceful transfer of power. This was an unsurprising end. Nobody was particularly surprised by what transpired, only saddened. I'll give you and 74 million other people some advice: the next time some idiot rides down an escalator and calls an entire group of people "rapists and murderers", try not to make them the leader of your party. This might be difficult. They might even have a big "R" next to their name on a ballot. Sure, you and your party might hate America (America is full of Democrats afterall), but try really, really hard not to so openly embrace psychopaths, okay? 2 1 Link to comment
Guy Chamberlin Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 9 minutes ago, knapplc said: Holy false equivalencies, Batman! Yep. The folks in the basement coming up with false equivalency rationalizations found a keeper. We're going to be hearing about impeaching Kamala for the rest of her term. If you wonder what Republicans would have done if roles had been reversed the past four years, just know that they would never, ever have gotten past Hillary Clinton losing the popular vote but winning the election. 3 Link to comment
BigRedBuster Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 2 hours ago, Redux said: His false claims of vote fraud being lofty enough to sway the election were not the core reason of the Capitol riot, but I can appreciate your train of thought here. If he were a standard suit that didn't say brash s#!t he never would have amassed the following he has, ergo the Capitol riot never happens. But it did. We could also play 7 degrees to Kevin Bacon and say if Nancy never rips up the speech it doesn't happen because civil unrest never gets to a boiling point. But these are unfortunately hypotheticals. I don't disagree, Trump's wilful appeal to his constituency is unique enough to say it's his fault. But his words were the evidence and the evidence was weak. I'm in the camp of he knows his words have inadvertent reactions making them intended. But I don't think this instance was worthy of an impeachment or a conviction. I know that's not a popular opinion. If not, I have absolutely no clue what a President could do to warrant impeachment and conviction. 2 1 Link to comment
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