Biden Foreign Policy

[TGHusker]

so very sad.

 

 

[Archy1221]

Probably a good reminder of this sentiment about Biden from Obama 

 

https://www.cbs19news.com/story/42501205/barack-obama-reportedly-said-dont-underestimate-joes-ability-to-expletive-things-up

 

According to Politico, the former president said: "Don't underestimate Joe's ability to f... things up."

 

Im sure we will be using a lot these next three years 

[Scarlet]

4 hours ago, Archy1221 said:

Probably a good reminder of this sentiment about Biden from Obama 

 

https://www.cbs19news.com/story/42501205/barack-obama-reportedly-said-dont-underestimate-joes-ability-to-expletive-things-up

 

According to Politico, the former president said: "Don't underestimate Joe's ability to f... things up."

 

Im sure we will be using a lot these next three years 

Yeah but would he f#&% things up this bad?

 

 

[TGHusker]

A thoughtful article on the 'shock and awe' of the events in Afghanistan. 

I've quoted the beginning and the end of the article below.  Much to think on in between.

 

A few thoughts:

1.  I 100% agree that we needed to leave Afghanistan

2. We should not be in the business of nation building while our own nation is falling apart around us.  After WW 2 yes - that was our role but not now.

3. The Biden admin terribly botched this 'withdrawal'.  Not prepared and by news accounts - not honest about being warned that the 'house of cards'

could fall quickly - based on latest reports of internal discussions (see 3rd post below).  Potentially, this issue alone will sink the Dem's chances in 2024.  We'll see how they recover until then.

4.  USA's role in the world needs to change.  We can't continue to be the world's policeman and we cannot act unilaterally.

5.  Time to concentrate on fixing things at home - it is the only way we can be strong enough to gain the respect of other nations - as discussed in the last section copied below.

 

 

https://www.greenwichtime.com/news/article/Afghanistan-s-crisis-underscores-the-U-S-s-16399938.php

 

Quote

 

"Let me speak clearly and bluntly. This is a catastrophe," said Josep Borrell, the European Union's foreign policy chief, in an address Thursday to the European Parliament. He echoed the widespread dismay felt by policymakers and politicians across the continent over the sudden Taliban takeover in Afghanistan - and the Biden administration's military withdrawal that preceded it. Many of the United States' NATO partners in Europe had invested considerable manpower and resources in the American-led war and nation-building project in Afghanistan, though on a smaller scale than Washington. For some, participating in the U.S.-led mission conferred a significant degree of post-Cold War prestige.

Now, European onlookers are shocked to see the fruits of their labor seemingly vanish in the space of a few harrowing days. Across the pond, a defiant White House has doubled down on its decision-making, showing little contrition for its role in the chaotic scenes unfolding in Kabul.

"I say this with a heavy heart and with horror over what is happening, but the early withdrawal was a serious and far-reaching miscalculation by the current administration," Norbert Röttgen, chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee in the German parliament, told Politico. "This does fundamental damage to the political and moral credibility of the West."

 

 

 

Quote

 

To that end, Biden and his allies harp on the idea of a "foreign policy for the middle class," tethered to a kind of nation-building populism at home. Critics may see Afghanistan as the death knell for Biden's lofty rhetoric about human rights and democracy, as the United States stands by while the Taliban sets about reversing a generation of progress for Afghan women and girls. But proponents of withdrawal may counter that the United States can better serve the cause of liberal democracy by refocusing its agenda, shifting to reckon with authoritarian China and to bolster a deeply polarized society at home.

In an essay for the Economist, Stanford University political theorist Francis Fukuyama suggested that the horrors on view in Kabul may mark a "major juncture in world history, as America turned away from the world." But in truth, he continues, "the end of the American era had come much earlier."

The war in Afghanistan took place during a narrow period of unquestioned American hegemony on the world stage. That age may be over now, and U.S. leadership is pivoting to meet a new one. "The long-term sources of American weakness and decline are more domestic than international," wrote Fukuyama. "The country will remain a great power for many years, but just how influential it will be depends on its ability to fix its internal problems, rather than its foreign policy."

 

 

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/confidential-state-department-cable-in-july-warned-of-afghanistans-collapse-11629406993

Quote

 

WASHINGTON—An internal State Department memo last month warned top agency officials of the potential collapse of Kabul soon after the U.S.’s Aug. 31 troop withdrawal deadline in Afghanistan, according to a U.S. official and a person familiar with the document.

The classified cable represents the clearest evidence yet that the administration had been warned by its own officials on the ground that the Taliban’s advance was imminent and Afghanistan’s military may be unable to stop it.

The cable, sent via the State Department’s confidential dissent channel, warned of rapid territorial gains by the Taliban and the subsequent collapse of Afghan security forces, and offered recommendations on ways to mitigate the crisis and speed up an evacuation, the two people said.

The cable, dated July 13, also called for the State Department to use tougher language in describing the atrocities being committed by the Taliban, one of the people said.

As of last weekend, some 18,000 Afghans who have applied for the U.S.’s Special Immigrant Visa program, as well as their families, remained on the ground in Afghanistan, with about half of them outside Kabul in areas already under Taliban control, and efforts to get them to the Kabul airport have grown more difficult by the day.

In all, 23 U.S. Embassy staffers, all Americans, signed the July 13 cable, the two people said.

The U.S. official said there was a rush to deliver it, given circumstances on the ground in Kabul.

The cable was sent to Secretary of State Antony Blinken and Director of Policy Planning Salman Ahmed. Mr. Blinken received the cable and reviewed it shortly after receipt, according to the person familiar with the exchange, who added that contingency planning was already under way when it was received, and that Mr. Blinken welcomed their feedback.

 

 

Quote

 

The existence of the confidential State Department cable adds to an expanding debate involving the White House, Pentagon and intelligence services over what U.S. officials understood about assessments of Afghanistan’s stability.

U.S. military and intelligence officials, struggling with the fallout from the rapid collapse of Afghanistan’s government and armed forces, have sparred over U.S. intelligence assessments regarding the country’s stability.

President Biden in July had said that a collapse of the government and a Taliban takeover were “highly unlikely,” pointing to the large numbers of Afghan National Security Force members, their U.S. training and modern equipment, including an air force.

On Wednesday, in an interview with ABC News, Mr. Biden said that “the idea that somehow there’s a way to have gotten out without chaos ensuing, I don’t know how that happens.”

 

 

[DevoHusker]

 

 

[Archy1221]

7 hours ago, DevoHusker said:

 

 

Biden has no idea what’s going on.  

[knapplc]

 

 

 

Ok, since no one seems to know any of the history of Afghanistan before this week, a refresher:
2/29/20: There are 13,000 US troops there. Trump reaches deal with Taliban. Agrees Afghanistan Gov, which is not part of deal, will release 5,000 Taliban fighters. Requires Taliban...1

...to take action against al Qaeda, not to attack US troops or coalition forces, or launch high-profile attacks.
3/1/20: Afghan president freaks out, says US has no authority to commit to release prisoners held by Afghanistan. (Trump Admin forces it to happen anyway.)
...2

...
Despite there agreement not to attack any provincial capitals, Taliban unilaterally attacks Afghan forces in Helmand province.
3/19/2020: DOD IG says U.S. cut troop levels by more than 4,000, even though “Taliban escalated violence further after signing the agreement"...3

8/18/2020: DOD IG releases report saying Taliban didnt distance itself from terrorist organizations in Afghanistan. UN and U.S. "Taliban continued to support al-Qaeda, and conducted joint attacks with al-Qaeda members against Afghan National Defense and Security Forces.”...4

...in other words *every element of the agreement - dont attack, renounce terrorists, don't work with terrorists - had been violated.
9/3/2020: Afghanistan, pressured by Trump, has been releasing the 5,000 Taliban in jail. Last 400 released this day. They return to fighting...5

...9/16/2020: In continued violation of the Trump agreement, Taliban - reportedly working with al Qaeda - attacks 3 provinces in Northern Afghanistan....

...Immediately after election, Trump Admin leaks theyre going to do a massive, rapid withdrawal of US troops before inauguration. Distressed by reports, Rubio warns of “a Saigon-type of situation." McConnell says "would hurt our allies & delight the people who wish us harm"...6

11/17/2020: Without consulting with incoming administration, which is still being blocked from security briefings, Trump Admin announces rapid withdrawal of troops down to 2,500 by 5 days before inauguration. That's down from 13,000 the year before....7

...this was playing with people's lives. This was incompetence writ large. But here is where Biden screws up - by not more fully reversing the nonsense Trump had done.
2/3/2021: Afghan Study Group, created by Congress, urges Biden to abandon the Trump timetable, and set.../8

...withdrawal on all sides - both Afghan government and Taliban - meeting all commitments under a peace framework that had been reached. So, it would be based on status, not date.
3/25: Gen Richard Clarke of Central Op Command says Taliban has not met its obligations...9

...under treaties & frameworks.
4/14: Biden sets a deadline of 9/11 for getting out of Afghanistan, ignoring recommendation of the working group. This is the big mistake.
4/18: Trump rants and raves, saying Biden should start pulling everyone out beginning in about 2 weeks...10

...so yes, Biden made a mistake. But we are dealing with a situation where the former president pulled down troop levels to a ridiculous level just five days before inauguration, ignored attacks and violations of a treaty he hit, and pretended he had succeeded. He gave them...11

....5,000 fighters. I mean, look at this: The Taliban was violating *every term* of the treaty, and Trump pulled out 1000s of troops. Other than setting ourselves up for a firefight with the Taliban, the only options seemed to be bringing people back in, changing the timeline..12

...or this. I dont know. Its a cluster. Im not even sure I can call what Biden did a mistake. Did they have intel that the Taliban, which had been moving forward since Trump struck his stupid deal, was planning to attack our troops? Who were way outmanned? I dont know. But...13

...this idea that this had some other easy solution or if - instead, as Rubio & McConnell said in December - the rapid drawdown of troops by Trump set up a disaster, a Saigon-type situation that was handed off to Biden, I don't know. But this is what you get when you...14

...allow violations of treaties, petulant troop withdrawals, and media who seems to have no memory, and a political party hopeful that no one will remember. I am not excusing Biden. I just want experts to say,given the actual situation he was handed, how it should have been done.

 

 

[nic]

Not a Bill Maher fan, but he gets it.

 

“The people who know what they're doing -- the Democrats -- and the pullout looks exactly … I can't think of how it could've looked any different if it was Trump. Honestly," Maher said. "I mean, how could it be more f---ed up? How could it be more incompetent? How could it be more Trumpian? So what do I say to myself when I sleep at night when the adults are back in charge and they f--- it up exactly as bad as Trump would?"

[ZRod]

17 hours ago, knapplc said:

 

 

 

Ok, since no one seems to know any of the history of Afghanistan before this week, a refresher:
2/29/20: There are 13,000 US troops there. Trump reaches deal with Taliban. Agrees Afghanistan Gov, which is not part of deal, will release 5,000 Taliban fighters. Requires Taliban...1

...to take action against al Qaeda, not to attack US troops or coalition forces, or launch high-profile attacks.
3/1/20: Afghan president freaks out, says US has no authority to commit to release prisoners held by Afghanistan. (Trump Admin forces it to happen anyway.)
...2

...
Despite there agreement not to attack any provincial capitals, Taliban unilaterally attacks Afghan forces in Helmand province.
3/19/2020: DOD IG says U.S. cut troop levels by more than 4,000, even though “Taliban escalated violence further after signing the agreement"...3

8/18/2020: DOD IG releases report saying Taliban didnt distance itself from terrorist organizations in Afghanistan. UN and U.S. "Taliban continued to support al-Qaeda, and conducted joint attacks with al-Qaeda members against Afghan National Defense and Security Forces.”...4

...in other words *every element of the agreement - dont attack, renounce terrorists, don't work with terrorists - had been violated.
9/3/2020: Afghanistan, pressured by Trump, has been releasing the 5,000 Taliban in jail. Last 400 released this day. They return to fighting...5

...9/16/2020: In continued violation of the Trump agreement, Taliban - reportedly working with al Qaeda - attacks 3 provinces in Northern Afghanistan....

...Immediately after election, Trump Admin leaks theyre going to do a massive, rapid withdrawal of US troops before inauguration. Distressed by reports, Rubio warns of “a Saigon-type of situation." McConnell says "would hurt our allies & delight the people who wish us harm"...6

11/17/2020: Without consulting with incoming administration, which is still being blocked from security briefings, Trump Admin announces rapid withdrawal of troops down to 2,500 by 5 days before inauguration. That's down from 13,000 the year before....7

...this was playing with people's lives. This was incompetence writ large. But here is where Biden screws up - by not more fully reversing the nonsense Trump had done.
2/3/2021: Afghan Study Group, created by Congress, urges Biden to abandon the Trump timetable, and set.../8

...withdrawal on all sides - both Afghan government and Taliban - meeting all commitments under a peace framework that had been reached. So, it would be based on status, not date.
3/25: Gen Richard Clarke of Central Op Command says Taliban has not met its obligations...9

...under treaties & frameworks.
4/14: Biden sets a deadline of 9/11 for getting out of Afghanistan, ignoring recommendation of the working group. This is the big mistake.
4/18: Trump rants and raves, saying Biden should start pulling everyone out beginning in about 2 weeks...10

...so yes, Biden made a mistake. But we are dealing with a situation where the former president pulled down troop levels to a ridiculous level just five days before inauguration, ignored attacks and violations of a treaty he hit, and pretended he had succeeded. He gave them...11

....5,000 fighters. I mean, look at this: The Taliban was violating *every term* of the treaty, and Trump pulled out 1000s of troops. Other than setting ourselves up for a firefight with the Taliban, the only options seemed to be bringing people back in, changing the timeline..12

...or this. I dont know. Its a cluster. Im not even sure I can call what Biden did a mistake. Did they have intel that the Taliban, which had been moving forward since Trump struck his stupid deal, was planning to attack our troops? Who were way outmanned? I dont know. But...13

...this idea that this had some other easy solution or if - instead, as Rubio & McConnell said in December - the rapid drawdown of troops by Trump set up a disaster, a Saigon-type situation that was handed off to Biden, I don't know. But this is what you get when you...14

...allow violations of treaties, petulant troop withdrawals, and media who seems to have no memory, and a political party hopeful that no one will remember. I am not excusing Biden. I just want experts to say,given the actual situation he was handed, how it should have been done.

 

 

Don't forget that one of the main leaders of the Taliban right now was released from a Pakistani prison in 2018 after pressure from the Trump administration.

 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-taliban-pakistani-prison/

Quote

Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar was released from prison in 2018 by Pakistani officials after pressure from the U.S. government under the Trump administration. A photograph accurately shows that he met with then-Secretary of State Mike Pompeo in September 2020 to launch peace talks.

 

 

It will be interesting how those who wanted us out and want to blame everything on the current administration square all this.

[Archy1221]

2 hours ago, ZRod said:

Don't forget that one of the main leaders of the Taliban right now was released from a Pakistani prison in 2018 after pressure from the Trump administration.

 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-taliban-pakistani-prison/

 

 

It will be interesting how those who wanted us out and want to blame everything on the current administration square all this.

My issue isn’t that we got out, it’s the process.  I believe a big majority of Americans want us out.  But they royally f#&%ed up the process.  I don’t see how anyone can say otherwise. 

[RedDenver]

48 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

My issue isn’t that we got out, it’s the process.  I believe a big majority of Americans want us out.  But they royally f#&%ed up the process.  I don’t see how anyone can say otherwise. 

I don't think there's any question the withdrawal process was terrible. But was there a non-terrible way to get out after 10+ years? I doubt it, and I think it could have gone even worse - imagine that the Taliban was trying to kill US personnel as they withdrew instead of generally letting the US leave.

[ZRod]

36 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

My issue isn’t that we got out, it’s the process.  I believe a big majority of Americans want us out.  But they royally f#&%ed up the process.  I don’t see how anyone can say otherwise. 

I don't think anyone has said otherwise. But not sure it would have been any different for another player. This was years in the making and it was utter garbage.

[Archy1221]

1 hour ago, RedDenver said:

I don't think there's any question the withdrawal process was terrible. But was there a non-terrible way to get out after 10+ years? I doubt it, and I think it could have gone even worse - imagine that the Taliban was trying to kill US personnel as they withdrew instead of generally letting the US leave.

Seems like there is probably a quite a bit less terrible way of doing rather than leaving all the American’s and Afghan’s that helped us as the last people to get out 

[RedDenver]

1 minute ago, Archy1221 said:

Seems like there is probably a quite a bit less terrible way of doing rather than leaving all the American’s and Afghan’s that helped us as the last people to get out 

I agree, but that isn't the only thing that could have gone wrong. And would another admin have actually brought those people back to the US? I doubt it.

[ZRod]

31 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

I agree, but that isn't the only thing that could have gone wrong. And would another admin have actually brought those people back to the US? I doubt it.

That's probably my largest gripe with how this all went down. We should have got our people and those who helped us out months ago. Then anyone who didn't want to stay in Afghanistan should have been given refuge once we saw how the Taliban was taking over.

 

Realistically we could have continued to dictate terms with the Taliban even a few months ago to get anyone out. They weren't going to touch Americans for fear of retribution and us remaining. They were clearly banking on our departure to take over, and would play ball just to get us to leave.