Triaging the QB room

[BigRedBuster]

17 minutes ago, Red Five said:

:nods head:

No.

[gobiggergoredder]

26 minutes ago, Cdog923 said:

 

For reference sake, TM's completion percentages from freshman to senior year: 

 

2010: 59.2%

2011: 56.3%

2012: 62%

2013: 62.7% (only threw 110 passes due to injury)

QB rating is flat YoY.

 

The percentage from 2010 to 2012 accounts for approximately 1.25 completions per game.

[Cdog923]

11 minutes ago, gobiggergoredder said:

QB rating is flat YoY.

 

The percentage from 2010 to 2012 accounts for approximately 1.25 completions per game.

 

Sure; I'm just adding numbers to the discussion. 

[gossamorharpy]

1 hour ago, gobiggergoredder said:

That’s great.  I won’t say he’s not better, but dramatically?

 

From my standpoint he went from being a terrible thrower to an average/below average thrower.  And I’m leaning toward below average.

 

We get hung up on mechanics.  I’m going to slide over to AM for a moment.  He could rarely hit a WR out of break and was always behind on timing.  That has nothing to do with mechanics.

 

TM was a freak athlete.  Pretty poor at tossing it around.

I'm sorry but as a former player and GA for various D2 and jucos after college, i can tell you your bolded statement above is 100% false.  Mechanics is more than just arm angle- its dropback/step back cadence and timing depending on the play, its consistent footwork that is always in motion and ready to throw at a moments notice and not being off balanced, its about maintaining proper balance in and out of the pocket so you're not leaning back (as the TM video above tried to point out), its about engaging the core and hips in the right way so you're using your whole body to throw with power (not just with pure arm strength), accuracy and consistency.  All of which is before we even get to arm angles/releases and timing w/ receivers.  I haven't even touched on head movement/eye movement to not telegraph where you're throwing and deceive a DB into covering a guy you aren't throwing to.  All of this (and much more) falls in QB mechanics 

 

[Undone]

1 hour ago, Mavric said:

People like to win.

 

Agreed. I just don't really think it's even a subconscious preference towards Haarberg because he's an in-state kid. I mean I'm sure there are a few people out there that are taking him over Sims for that reason, but I don't think they're a large portion of the fans on Team Ricky.

 

  

54 minutes ago, Red Five said:

Frost got an extra 2 years because he was from Nebraska.  Anyone else would have been fired after 3 losing seasons in a row.

I do agree with this one. But being a former star player of the team is surely on a different level than just being a recruit from Kearney, right? 

[gobiggergoredder]

26 minutes ago, gossamorharpy said:

I'm sorry but as a former player and GA for various D2 and jucos after college, i can tell you your bolded statement above is 100% false.  Mechanics is more than just arm angle- its dropback/step back cadence and timing depending on the play, its consistent footwork that is always in motion and ready to throw at a moments notice and not being off balanced, its about maintaining proper balance in and out of the pocket so you're not leaning back (as the TM video above tried to point out), its about engaging the core and hips in the right way so you're using your whole body to throw with power (not just with pure arm strength), accuracy and consistency.  All of which is before we even get to arm angles/releases and timing w/ receivers.  I haven't even touched on head movement/eye movement to not telegraph where you're throwing and deceive a DB into covering a guy you aren't throwing to.  All of this (and much more) falls in QB mechanics 

 

These are all great "nuggets" that had almost no impact on the performance TM.  AM, in my opinion, had poor field vision and/or didn't understand coverages.  He was always late.

 

I feel like everytime we start to have these mechanics discussions I always go back to the pirate.  I remember him on game day talking about how he really only looked for one thing in a high school QB....accuracy.  I wish I could find the clip, but I've never been able to.  All I have is this.

 

Mike Leach: "If a quarterback isn't accurate, you shouldn't recruit him" - Footballscoop

 

I played D2 ball too.  I was a DB.  We didn’t have a position coach, just a GA.  My GAs were a D lineman and a running back.   I’m with Mike.

 

 

Quote

"People make this mistake all over the country, and everybody can think of one, but there will be a guy who is big, strong and athletic, and everyone gets tempted by speed and if someone has a super strong arm."

"Then they say 'Well all he has to do is work on his accuracy. Well ok. He won't be accurate in high school. Then some college will take him, and then he won't be accurate there, and then the NFL says 'all he has to do is work on his accuracy,' and they'll take him there, and he won't be accurate there and then he'll be out of the league."

 

[Husker in WI]

4 minutes ago, Undone said:

 

Agreed. I just don't really think it's even a subconscious preference towards Haarberg because he's an in-state kid. I mean I'm sure there are a few people out there that are taking him over Sims for that reason, but I don't think they're a large portion of the fans on Team Ricky.

 

 

I think the in-state thing is playing a significant role - not in preferring him over Sims, because setting aside all stats and how they've played it's hard to pick the 0-2 guy over the 4-1 guy. But Haarberg is not playing particularly well overall, and a lot of the defense of his play I think is coming from the fact that people really want him to succeed as the Nebraska kid. I think the criticisms of QB play would be louder in spite of the 4-1 record if it was Purdy, or Sims, or Smothers with identical performances.

[Undone]

2 minutes ago, Husker in WI said:

I think the criticisms of QB play would be louder in spite of the 4-1 record if it was Purdy, or Sims, or Smothers with identical performances.

 

If this board is an accurate cross section of Husker Nation, I'd say the criticism of Haarberg is very loud.

 

After the LA Tech game, I thought I had seen enough of Haarberg to say he was less mistake-prone and offered more than Sims did. After I watched a few more games I'm starting to feel like Sims should have maybe gotten the nod against Illinois.

 

But to be clear this is analysis and not "complaining." Yes, I'm glad we have a guy, period, that is 4-1 and our team is 4-3. I really don't give the situation any kind of an extra boost in favor of Haarberg because he's from NE.

[gossamorharpy]

22 minutes ago, gobiggergoredder said:

These are all great "nuggets" that had almost no impact on the performance TM.  AM, in my opinion, had poor field vision and/or didn't understand coverages.  He was always late.

 

I feel like everytime we start to have these mechanics discussions I always go back to the pirate.  I remember him on game day talking about how he really only looked for one thing in a high school QB....accuracy.  I wish I could find the clip, but I've never been able to.  All I have is this.

 

Mike Leach: "If a quarterback isn't accurate, you shouldn't recruit him" - Footballscoop

 

I played D2 ball too.  I’m with Mike.

 

 

I think its a stretch to say they had no impact on TM.  TM had a horrendous throwing motion that was somewhat effective when he could outrun everyone on the field-- when his toe issues arose and his running was hindered, he was never the same qb (imo).   Let's say he had that same speed but learned early on the proper way to throw football?  I guess we'll never know, but, on average, I would venture to say he might've been a bit more effective with his arm when his running game was hindered if he had better mechanics.  He did show some improvements part of the way here but usually reverted back to that lean back, shotput esque motion that he probably learned when he was 10 (old habits are hard to break)

 

For 2 am- how often did we hear that ponzi scheme of a qb Verdusco talk about putting 2am through unorthodox drills that Pat mahomes does because thats the new way of qb play?  Yet on game day, how often did we see 2AM air mail a throw to the flat or over a receivers head?  On so many of those throws you look at the tape and see him throwing off his back foot which often times leads to air mail throws and subpar accuracy.  Sure, there will always be outliers who can overcome poor mechanics and have success but I'd put the % of those qbs who can actually get away with that in P5 to maybe 10% of QBs, if that? 

 

I love Leach (RIP), legend of the game that is sorely missed.  His quote is spot on- you can't teach accuracy simply through mechanics change.  I'd venture to bet tho that Leach and his assistants were not recruiting qbs who were starting off with poor and non existent mechanics.  Perhaps in HS a qb can get away with poor mechanics and still throw accurately- but 99% of the time this changes at the next level when defenders are that much bigger, faster and talented than what you face in HS.  

 

Also, great to cross paths with another former player.  I wasnt trying to big time you with my playing/ga reference but sometimes I read things on forums and am compelled to reference lol.  

[MyBloodIsRed16]

24 minutes ago, gossamorharpy said:

I'm sorry but as a former player and GA for various D2 and jucos after college, i can tell you your bolded statement above is 100% false.  Mechanics is more than just arm angle- its dropback/step back cadence and timing depending on the play, its consistent footwork that is always in motion and ready to throw at a moments notice and not being off balanced, its about maintaining proper balance in and out of the pocket so you're not leaning back (as the TM video above tried to point out), its about engaging the core and hips in the right way so you're using your whole body to throw with power (not just with pure arm strength), accuracy and consistency.  All of which is before we even get to arm angles/releases and timing w/ receivers.  I haven't even touched on head movement/eye movement to not telegraph where you're throwing and deceive a DB into covering a guy you aren't throwing to.  All of this (and much more) falls in QB mechanics 

 

one of the biggest problems most of the QBs in recent history had with their mechanics was their footwork.  A lot of inaccuracy comes from foot position at the time of the throw. How many times have we seen our qbs throwing off their back foot or with their feet parallel.  Granted the lines have been bad and its a miracle sometime that qbs can get the ball off. But its happened plenty when they have had time to throw.  

[gossamorharpy]

6 minutes ago, MyBloodIsRed16 said:

one of the biggest problems most of the QBs in recent history had with their mechanics was their footwork.  A lot of inaccuracy comes from foot position at the time of the throw. How many times have we seen our qbs throwing off their back foot or with their feet parallel.  Granted the lines have been bad and its a miracle sometime that qbs can get the ball off. But its happened plenty when they have had time to throw.  

footwork is so critical.  Throwing at scale, you simply wont get the desired results at the % you want if the base isn't set.  Same can be said for really any sport. 

[gossamorharpy]

Also to clarify, outside of HH's relatively low arm angle/release, his mechanics is not even close to the top of worries for me.  The injuries and complete lack of playmakers is, by far, the biggest thing holding this offense back.  O line, while improved, is 2nd biggest for me.  

 

Sure, there are some route misses he could've had big plays with but this can be addressed in the film room, studying progressions, and getting quicker on the decision making.  Even a legit throwing Qb would struggle at times in this offense as presently constructred when we're trotting out either fringe P5 guys or young freshman at key skill spots.  The attrition to the WR and RB room has been so devastating

[BigRedBuster]

1 minute ago, gossamorharpy said:

Also to clarify, outside of HH's relatively low arm angle/release, his mechanics is not even close to the top of worries for me.  The injuries and complete lack of playmakers is, by far, the biggest thing holding this offense back.  O line, while improved, is 2nd biggest for me.  

 

Sure, there are some route misses he could've had big plays with but this can be addressed in the film room, studying progressions, and getting quicker on the decision making.  Even a legit throwing Qb would struggle at times in this offense as presently constructred when we're trotting out either fringe P5 guys or young freshman at key skill spots.  The attrition to the WR and RB room has been so devastating

Yes.   Are the new young WRs running the right routes?  Saturday, there was a play towards the side lines where we ended up with two WRs in the same area and it was easily defended because there were then two defenders there.  Someone messed up and it wasn't necessarily HH.  Yes, HH has a lot of room for improvement, but sometimes the mistake isn't on him.  And....now, we are going to have even more new players out there.

[Toe]

6 hours ago, ndobney said:

That is called cherry picking stats and it’s intentionally misleading and dishonest. Haarberg doesn’t average 2 ints a game and a fumble and the fumble was recovered by us. Sims had several fumbled snaps and you are just looking at the stats from one game for Haarberg. One of his ints bounced off of a wr. And Sims has a multiple season for a track record of turning the ball over.

 

we don’t need a qb that’s going to consistently put our defense in bad situations as often as Sims does. Haarberg did put the defense in a bad situation yesterday a couple times but the defense was able to handle it. 
 

the defense was also able to handle it a couple of times when Sims put the defense in a bad situation in his first two games. The problem in our first couple of games Sims put our defense in bad situations 4 or 5 teams each game and it gassed the defense and was to much to them to overcome. I don’t want Sims anywhere near the field as our qb

 

I'll just say this: Haarberg to date has been a luckier QB than Sims. Don't mistake that for being a better QB...

[teachercd]

2 minutes ago, Toe said:

 

I'll just say this: Haarberg to date has been a luckier QB than Sims. Don't mistake that for being a better QB...

The most luck he seems to have is that 99% of the fan base seems unable to rip on him no matter what he does.

 

Sims could walk on water and Husker fans would be like "SEEEEEE, I told you he can't swim!"