TGHusker Posted July 13, 2020 Author Share Posted July 13, 2020 9 hours ago, Landlord said: I'm waiting on one conservative who can state the difference between socialism and democratic socialism. I was going to expound on how democratic socialism is a democratically induced system rather than an authoritarian induced system. Voters freely vote for DS while in the old Soviet world, socialism was mandated by govt authorities. Wiki does a better job of describing it here so I won't 'expound' any longer. However I will add this - Most socialism in the world today (as counted by the # of countries) is of the Democratic Socialism type than the authoritarian socialism type. Unfortunately, China, with its huge population, has a large % of the world's population under the authoritarian type of socialism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism Quote Democratic socialism is a political philosophy supporting political democracy within a socially owned economy,[1] with a particular emphasis on economic democracy, workplace democracy and workers' self-management[2] within a market socialist economy or some form of a decentralised planned socialist economy.[3] Democratic socialists argue that capitalism is inherently incompatible with the values of freedom, equality and solidarity and that these ideals can only be achieved through the realisation of a socialist society.[4] Although most democratic socialists seek a gradual transition to socialism,[5] democratic socialism can support either revolutionary or reformist politics as means to establish socialism.[6] As a term, it was popularised by social democrats who were opposed to the authoritarian socialist development in Russia and elsewhere during the 20th century.[7] The origins of democratic socialism can be traced to 19th-century utopian socialist thinkers and the British Chartist movement that somewhat differed in their goals yet all shared the essence of democratic decision making and public ownership of the means of production as positive characteristics of the society they advocated for.[8] In the late 19th century and early 20th century, democratic socialism was also influenced by social democracy. The gradualist form of socialism promoted by the British Fabian Society and Eduard Bernstein's evolutionary socialism in Germany influenced the development of democratic socialism.[9] Democratic socialism is what most socialists understand by the concept of socialism.[10] It may be a very broad or more limited concept,[11] referring to all forms of socialism that are democratic and reject an authoritarian Marxist–Leninist state.[12] Democratic socialism can include libertarian socialism,[13] market socialism,[14] reformist socialism[4] and revolutionary socialism[15] as well as ethical socialism,[16] liberal socialism,[17] social democracy[18] and some forms of state socialism[19] and utopian socialism.[8] Democratic socialism is contrasted to Marxism–Leninism which is viewed as being authoritarian or undemocratic in practice.[20] Democratic socialists oppose the Stalinist political system and the Soviet-type economic system, rejecting the perceived authoritarian form of governance and the centralised administrative command economy that took form in the Soviet Union and other Marxist–Leninist states during the 20th century.[21] Democratic socialism is also distinguished from Third Way social democracy[22] on the basis that democratic socialists are committed to systemic transformation of the economy from capitalism to socialism whereas social democratic supporters of the Third Way were more concerned about challenging the New Right to win social democracy back to power.[23] This has resulted in analysts and critics alike arguing that in effect it endorsed capitalism, even if it was due to recognising that outspoken anti-capitalism in these circumstances was politically nonviable; and that it was not only anti-socialist and neoliberal, but anti-social democratic in practice.[24] Some maintain this was the result of their type of reformism that caused them to administer the system according to capitalist logic[25] while others saw it as a modern form of democratic liberal socialism theoretically fitting within market socialism, distinguishing it from classical socialism, especially in the United Kingdom.[26] While having socialism as a long-term goal,[27] some democratic socialists who follow social democracy are more concerned to curb capitalism's excesses and are supportive of progressive reforms to humanise it in the present day.[28] In contrast, other democratic socialists believe that economic interventionism and similar policy reforms aimed at addressing social inequalities and suppressing the economic contradictions of capitalism would only exacerbate the contradictions,[29] causing them to emerge elsewhere under a different guise.[30] Those democratic socialists believe that the fundamental issues with capitalism are systemic in nature and can only be resolved by replacing the capitalist mode of production with socialism, i.e. by replacing private ownership with collective ownership of the means of production and extending democracy to the economic sphere in the form of industrial democracy.[31] The main criticism of democratic socialism concerns the compatibility of democracy and socialism.[32] 2 Link to comment
BigRedBuster Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 18 minutes ago, TGHusker said: I was going to expound on how democratic socialism is a democratically induced system rather than an authoritarian induced system. Voters freely vote for DS while in the old Soviet world, socialism was mandated by govt authorities. Wiki does a better job of describing it here so I won't 'expound' any longer. However I will add this - Most socialism in the world today (as counted by the # of countries) is of the Democratic Socialism type than the authoritarian socialism type. Unfortunately, China, with its huge population, has a large % of the world's population under the authoritarian type of socialism: I've said it a number of times on here, but I'll say it again. We have always been a combination of capitalism and democratic socialism since our country was founded. Republicans that rant on and on about how horrible socialism is, don't acknowledge that all of us have benefited from this combined system. The discussion needs to be about what parts need to be capitalism and what parts Democratic socialism. NOT having people from either side claiming one is utopia and one his evil. 8 Link to comment
TGHusker Posted July 13, 2020 Author Share Posted July 13, 2020 Just now, BigRedBuster said: I've said it a number of times on here, but I'll say it again. We have always been a combination of capitalism ad democratic socialism since our country was founded. Republicans that rant on and on about how horrible socialism is, don't acknowledge that all of us have benefited from this combined system. The discussion needs to be about what parts need to be capitalism and what parts Democratic socialism. Agree. There is not a pure capitalistic or pure free enterprise system. If there were, we'd all be enslaved to the worst depravity that is motivated by greed. The role of govt is in part to curb the worst in us & to create a civil society that protects everyone while at the same time giving us the freedom to be creative in our business and personal endeavors. 4 Link to comment
RedDenver Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 12 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said: I've said it a number of times on here, but I'll say it again. We have always been a combination of capitalism ad democratic socialism since our country was founded. Republicans that rant on and on about how horrible socialism is, don't acknowledge that all of us have benefited from this combined system. The discussion needs to be about what parts need to be capitalism and what parts Democratic socialism. NOT having people from either side claiming one is utopia and one his evil. Winner! Link to comment
Dr. Strangelove Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 16 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said: I've said it a number of times on here, but I'll say it again. We have always been a combination of capitalism and democratic socialism since our country was founded. Republicans that rant on and on about how horrible socialism is, don't acknowledge that all of us have benefited from this combined system. The discussion needs to be about what parts need to be capitalism and what parts Democratic socialism. NOT having people from either side claiming one is utopia and one his evil. Precisely. What tickles me is when people cry out about how Democrats want to use socialism to destroy America because they hate it. All while they drive on public roads, send their kids to public schools, visit public parks, their parents receive social security and they feel safe with the fire department phone call away. The reality is that some aspects of society are best kept in the public sector while others are best kept in the private sector. We can argue about what blend of the two is best, but don't say completely off the rails nonsense about how people hate America because they want it improved. 3 Link to comment
Danny Bateman Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 Another aspect to think about is we're not actually having an honest-to-goodness comparison of capitalism vs. socialism. We're comparing a subtype of the latter to the corrupt, crony capitalism practiced by Trump and the modern GOP. I've noticed a lot of right-wing types love to rail against socialism because they're rarely asked to defend the shortcomings of capitalism, particularly the abundant criticisms that can be levied against the perverted version of it their party currently practices. 2 1 Link to comment
Dr. Strangelove Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 54 minutes ago, Danny Bateman said: Another aspect to think about is we're not actually having an honest-to-goodness comparison of capitalism vs. socialism. We're comparing a subtype of the latter to the corrupt, crony capitalism practiced by Trump and the modern GOP. I've noticed a lot of right-wing types love to rail against socialism because they're rarely asked to defend the shortcomings of capitalism, particularly the abundant criticisms that can be levied against the perverted version of it their party currently practices. Well said! 1 Link to comment
TGHusker Posted July 13, 2020 Author Share Posted July 13, 2020 38 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said: I wonder if he could tell us how he really feels. He might open up a bit more. 1 Link to comment
TGHusker Posted July 13, 2020 Author Share Posted July 13, 2020 Dems - don't get cocky now - do the hard work. Hillary had a big lead too. https://theweek.com/speedreads/925170/democrats-are-getting-really-confident-thats-making-biden-pelosi-nervous Link to comment
Landlord Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 13 hours ago, TGHusker said: The role of govt is in part to curb the worst in us & to create a civil society that protects everyone while at the same time giving us the freedom to be creative in our business and personal endeavors. Exactly. And what's hilarious is that Trump supporters like him because he's populist. He's "for the little guy", he runs on not being a Washington bureaucrat but is looking out for you and me, the people that the government is screwing over. You know who's actually populist? The democratic socialist Bernie Sanders. His platform is entirely based on making sure that all of us, especially the most vulnerable and struggling, can still live in security and dignity and with a fair chance to succeed. Quote "What democratic socialism means to me is we expand Medicare, we provide educational opportunity to all Americans, we rebuild our crumbling infrastructure," Sanders added. "In other words, government serves the needs of all people rather than just wealthy campaign contributors. That's what it means to me." - Bernie Sanders Even from the Democratic Socialists of America website: Quote "At the root of our socialism is a profound commitment to democracy, as means and end. As we are unlikely to see an immediate end to capitalism tomorrow, DSA fights for reforms today that will weaken the power of corporations and increase the power of working people." These are things that Trump supporters actually support. Or at least claim to. 1 Link to comment
teachercd Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 I love that people are still fighting for Bernie... If only his party had. 1 Link to comment
commando Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 trump admitting that he is blackmailing someone? and that he witnessed a crime but didn't report it? 1 Link to comment
Moiraine Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 Quote "An Open Letter to the president" From the Drummer of Mötley Crüe, Tommy Lee Dear f#&%ing Lunatic, At your recent press conference - more a word salad that had a stroke and fell down stairs, you were CLEARLY so out of your depth you needed scuba gear. Within minutes of going off air your minions were backpedaling faster than Cirque De Soliel acrobats... In India a week ago, i couldn’t get past the bit about your being the most popular visitor in the history of f#&%ing india — a country of a BILLION human souls that’s only 3000 years old, give or take.!!! Trust me - Gandhi pulled CROWDS.. You pulled a cricket stadium and half WALKED out... Do you know how f#&%ing insane you sound, you off-brand butt plug? That's like the geopolitical equivalent of “that stripper really likes me” — only 10,000 times crazier and less self aware. You are f#&%ing exhausting. Every day is a natural experiment in determining how long 300 million people can resist coring out their own a$$h@!es with an ice auger. Every time I hear a snippet of your Queens-tinged banshee larynx farts, I want to scream! We are f#&%ing tired. As bad as we all thought your presidency would be when Putin got you elected, it’s been inestimably worse. You called a hostile, nuclear-armed head of state “short and fat.” How the f#&% does that help? You accused a woman — a former friend, no less — of showing up at your resort bleeding from the face and begging to get in. You, you, YOU — the guy who looks like a Christmas haggis inexplicably brought to life by Frosty’s magic hat — yes, you of all people said that. You attempted — with evident f#&%ing glee — to get 24 million people thrown off their health insurance. You gave billions away to corporations and the already wealthy while simultaneously telling struggling poor people that you were doing exactly the opposite. You endorsed a pedophile, praised brutal dictators, and defended LITERAL f#&%ING NAZIS! Ninety-nine percent of everything you say is either false, crazy, incoherent, just plain cruel, or a rancid paella of all four. Oh, by the way, Puerto Rico is still FUBAR. You got yourself and your family billions in tax breaks for Christmas. What do they get? More paper towels? Enough, enough, enough, enough! For the love of God and all that is holy, good, and pure, would you please, finally and forever, shut your feculent KFC-hole until you have something valuable — or even marginally civil — to say? You are a fried d!(k sandwich with a side of schlongs. If chlamydia and gonorrhea had a son, you’d appoint him HHS secretary. You are a disgraceful, pustulant hot stew full of casuistry, godawful ideas, unintelligible non sequiturs, and malignant rage. You are the perfect circus orangutan diaper from Plato’s World of Forms. So f#&% you Mr. President. And f#&% you forever. Oh, and Pence, you oleaginous house ferret. f#&% you, too. You'll be as useful as a chocolate teapot against a medical crisis you Bible thumping c$%k socket." 4 Link to comment
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