Star Wars: Episode VIII ***Speculation & Spoilers***

[Making Chimichangas]

@knapplc, that's good breakdown of many of the things wrong with the film and I can't and won't dispute that--cause I wouldn't be able to make an effective counter.

 

I will say though, maybe they're going on the premise with these new Star Wars movies that like here on Earth, history often repeats itself.  Different people, different time periods, same or similar circumstances with same or similar outcomes with a few variances here and there.  

 

The thing is, I think all your criticisms, while valid, could literally be applied to just about every major movie franchise: constantly re-use familar plot points, tropes, and situations, just maybe change some of the faces/add a few new characters now and again: see The Expendables, Fast N Furious, any Marvel/DC movie, etc.  Doesn't literature say that there are basically only 3 story types?  Person vs person, person vs nature, person vs self.

 

About the only thing remaining that I want to add is this: when I go to a movie, I want to be entertained.  I want to shut my brain off for a few hours, suspend my disbelief, and just enjoy the film.  And I can't do that if I am literally picking apart all the plot holes, inconsistencies, and the like.

 

And maybe I do give Star Wars, especially these newer films, more of a pass.  But then I also remember that these new films really aren't meant for older people like me and you.  They're meant for the young fans to start that love of these characters and this universe all over again.  I don't care how old I get, every time I go into a theater to see a Star Wars film, I become, if only for a brief time, that young, wide-eyed, 7 year old I was when I saw "A New Hope" in the theaters way back in 1977. 

[Roll Skers]

I rewatched it... The whole romance thing and ESPECIALLY the Leia floating through the space vacuum ruined it for me

[Enhance]

9 hours ago, knapplc said:

The Empire - the thing that needed explaining the most in this whole new trilogy is What Happened To The New Republic?!?!? Instead, we just have to accept that the Republic, which had stood for thousands of years, is suddenly out AGAIN after reestablishing itself from the couple-three decade reign of the Emperor. We absolutely needed a brief scene explaining how that coalition of systems that grew so big they overthrew the Empire - setting off celebrations around the galaxy - became so impotent so fast that the Empire essentially reestablished itself in... what? A few years? But where did they get the funds to build a huge new fleet, how did they train all those Stormtroopers, how do they have a functional government, how isn't the entire galaxy in turmoil or fighting against them?  The tiny Rebel Resistance fleet... where did the galaxy-wide support go, and how did it go so fast?  This is the least believable part of this whole thing, and that's not even including all the science questions you have to just ignore. 

Great points laid out in your post, but, I did have one thought/question about this particular paragraph:

 

That I can recall, the governing constructs of the universe have never really been explained to us in motion picture. They utilized them in episodes 1-3 (20 years after the original trilogy) but EP. 4-6 don't really ever tell us how the Empire amassed such a wealth, why there seems to be no opposite governing body outside of the Rebellion. You'd have to turn to supplemental materials if you wanted to know some of that information (which, by the way, the Battlefront 2 video game does dive into how The First Order grew to power after the fall of the Empire).

[Moiraine]

The First Order's rise isn't so terribly unbelievable as to bother me. When the Death Star was destroyed, the leaders of the Empire were killed, but their troops will have still been garrisoned all over the galaxy. It was clear they had the stronger military and the rebellion was never able to muster a lot of ships. The Republic, if it was able to be re-created after the Emperor was killed, may have started building ships, but they may have also felt that the need for it wasn't as strong as just recovering from being under the Empire's thumb.

Also, dunno if this is the best parallel, but I was just thinking of Iraq. Saddam Hussein was taken out, but to this day their situation is arguably worse than it was when he was in power. Even before ISIS the death rate was extremely high due to terrorist attacks, and then ISIS swooped in and was able to take over a big part of it for a couple years. You could maybe consider the First Order to be like ISIS. The Republic's military was pretty weak when the leader of the Empire was killed. Same goes with Iraq. ISIS was able to amass a pretty strong military very fast considering their origins.

Edited December 18, 2017 by Moiraine

[Crusader Husker]

42 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

The First Order's rise isn't so terribly unbelievable as to bother me. When the Death Star was destroyed, the leaders of the Empire were killed, but their troops will have still been garrisoned all over the galaxy. It was clear they had the stronger military and the rebellion was never able to muster a lot of ships. The Republic, if it was able to be re-created after the Emperor was killed, may have started building ships, but they may have also felt that the need for it wasn't as strong as just recovering from being under the Empire's thumb.

Also, dunno if this is the best parallel, but I was just thinking of Iraq. Saddam Hussein was taken out, but to this day their situation is arguably worse than it was when he was in power. Even before ISIS the death rate was extremely high due to terrorist attacks, and then ISIS swooped in and was able to take over a big part of it for a couple years. You could maybe consider the First Order to be like ISIS. The Republic's military was pretty weak when the leader of the Empire was killed. Same goes with Iraq. ISIS was able to amass a pretty strong military very fast considering their origins.

That is how it was explained to me.  Just like ISIS.  Snoke was an outer rim guy?  Who was looking for an opportunity.  

[teachercd]

Man, I have not seen it yet but a lot of you really get into the details.  I wish I could but I guess when it comes to watching movies I don't get all that into it.  Some of you notice or think about things that would never even cross my mind.  I like reading the posts and even the spoilers, it sort of helps me notice things I would have missed.

[NUinID]

45 minutes ago, teachercd said:

Man, I have not seen it yet but a lot of you really get into the details.  I wish I could but I guess when it comes to watching movies I don't get all that into it.  Some of you notice or think about things that would never even cross my mind.  I like reading the posts and even the spoilers, it sort of helps me notice things I would have missed.

 

This is pretty much the way I feel about it.  Instead of trying to think of ways that you feel the movie "in your mind" could be or should be better, I just want to enjoy it and not pick it apart.  But that is how I feel about it. 

 

I liked it for what it is, it is escapist entertainment, it is not life changing.  My son was making fun of someone saying that as he walked out of the theater.  I think it is impossible for something related to the Star War's Saga to be completely fresh and different.   The people that are making these movies now grew up as fans, they have expectations and know most people want it to go a certain way.  They can't and won't stray too far from the formula.  

 

I do understand being disappointed if you were expecting something else, but I guess I always expect them to have some of the same elements we have seen before.  

[Red Five]

Now that I am back on land, I can type a little more about it.  I do plan on watching it again in a better theater because the ship's screen/sound system left a lot to be desired.

 

My thoughts basically echo what most have said.  Overall liked the movie.  The Fin/casino thing was a waste of time.  Could have cut that out and saved 20-30 minutes of run time.  Loved seeing Yoda again.  I thought all the comedy lines were a good touch.  Thought for sure Leia was dunzo (and that would have been a good way for her to go) and her "forcing" her way back to the ship wasn't the best choice.  The Rey/Ren/Snoke scene was great.

 

Other random thoughts:

Do we believe the Rey's backstory that Ren said?  She was just sold for booze money?  Or do we still think she might be someone's daughter?

I totally missed the kid force move the broom at the end.  I did think that was a weird way to end the movie.

What are they going to do with Leia in IX?

TLJ picked up real quickly from the end of TFA.  How did the 1st O regroup so quick after Starkiller was destroyed?

Will we see the "Outer Rim Rebels" that the Resistance talked about in IX?

 

[NUinID]

11 hours ago, knapplc said:

Saw it today.  Really wanted to like it.  Really didn't.

 

The main thing I took away from this is that, with the main arc movies, they're going to play it safe and build on rip off the original movies.  It's a formula they know works, they regurgitate the old scenes packaged in a new way, and they get their $4.1 billion dollars back.  Safe.  But awful if you're looking to watch a great new movie. 

 

I'm going to miss some of the repeats, but here's a partial list.

 

We've Seen This Before

 

The Empire - the thing that needed explaining the most in this whole new trilogy is What Happened To The New Republic?!?!? Instead, we just have to accept that the Republic, which had stood for thousands of years, is suddenly out AGAIN after reestablishing itself from the couple-three decade reign of the Emperor. We absolutely needed a brief scene explaining how that coalition of systems that grew so big they overthrew the Empire - setting off celebrations around the galaxy - became so impotent so fast that the Empire essentially reestablished itself in... what? A few years? But where did they get the funds to build a huge new fleet, how did they train all those Stormtroopers, how do they have a functional government, how isn't the entire galaxy in turmoil or fighting against them?  The tiny Rebel Resistance fleet... where did the galaxy-wide support go, and how did it go so fast?  This is the least believable part of this whole thing, and that's not even including all the science questions you have to just ignore. 

 

Hoth - AT-ATs, underpowered but plucky "rebel" ships, a fortress surrounded by snow salt with a giant main gate. Trenches & turrets set up not in any strategic position but right out front. It's like a kid building a fort in the loose earth in the backyard for his green army men. Zero sophistication, just Here Are Good Guys Opposing Bad Guys.  Blend that with the Falcon coming to save the day a la the trench run in Star Wars. 

 

Handcuffs - The whole Kylo takes Rey to see the Emperor Snoke scene was lifted from ROTJ.  Some of the lines were lifted wholesale, the Emperor Snoke removing the handcuffs, the battle in the Throne Room, the conversation about conflict in you bap bap bap. 

 

The Bacta Tank - Finn waking up in the medical chamber, full of goop from his healing gizmo.

 

Dagobah - Luke Rey travels to a faraway planet where an old Jedi Master is hiding and, after some coercion, convinces the Master to provide training. There's even an X-Wing sunken in the water and a giant water dwelling creature broaching in front of us.  The training is again entirely enigmatic (reach out with your feelings) and, especially in Rey's case, almost nonexistent.  There's some physical training (but condescendingly? not nearly to the same extent as Luke's) and there's the emotional pull of the Dark Side and the cave under the tree pit by the sea where we see...

 

Luke's Face in Vader's Helmet - Luke goes into the tree cave where he swipes Vader's mask off only to reveal his face.  Rey thinks she's going to get answers, too, only to see... her own face. 

 

Bleh.   I could go on and on. 

 

The worst thing is, there is NO NEED to recycle these plot lines, at all. There are a million great stories they could tell with this universe, so why (other than it's a guaranteed buck) do they rehash this stuff?

 

And why don't fans hold them accountable for it?  Too much gushing over this movie, not enough people asking why.  Audiences need to be critical of the movies they watch or they're going to get crap movies. 

 

If this movie wasn't in the Star Wars line, if it was its own stand-alone story like Bladerunner or 2001: A Space Odyssey, it would be laughed out of the theater.  SO MANY PLOT HOLES. So much dumbness. 

 

Why did Laura Dern wait for a dozen of those transports to be destroyed before doing something?  Fire up your guns, have the ship's autopilot help out. Cheap ploy to create drama.

Why didn't the Empire put the pedal to the metal and catch up to the fleeing Rebel cruiser? Or, if it was faster, why didn't they just continue to pull away?  That whole space chase was dumb.

How do you sneak ships off that cruiser for side missions or escapes and the Empire can't see them? We have, today, an Earth-made telescope that can detect something as weak as a home WiFi signal from a million miles away. Literally - I'm not making that up.  Why would we believe a space-based culture wouldn't/couldn't see those ships and blast them? 

What in the world was that whole casino planet thing? It seemed nothing more than a way to introduce Benicio Del Toro's character, and produce some love plot between Finn & Rose, and to introduce some sympathetic and lovable horsedogcats and SUPER DUPER cute slave kids with clean faces and huge, cutesy eyes (and a force wielder). 

Leia's space sojourn.  That whole thing was corny as hell, should have resulted in her death so Carrie Fisher could have a been written out of the show, and we'd have closure. A human can't survive in space that long.  And when she started Force-floating back to the ship, why didn't her gown flutter?  I know the science is wonky in the Star Wars universe, but surely we're not supposed to believe inertia doesn't exist. Right?

Why were the bombers dropping bombs via some manual remote control?  That was asinine. 

 

Again. Bleh.  I could go on and on. Like this movie went on and on. 

 

This is likely the last of these movies I see in a theater.  They've lost me.  If this is what they're going to produce from now on, I guess I'll just let the present die & cherish my childhood memories from the past. 

 

Your last statement, explains everything to me as to why you didn't like the movie.  You expect them to bewilder you with wonderment like they did when you are a kid, except you don't look at them with the power of suspended  disbelief that a kid would.  You look at them as a cynical adult. 

Edited December 18, 2017 by NUinID

[Red Five]

I read this yesterday about how TLJ isn't meeting fans expectations.  I think it does a good job of somewhat explaining why.  Basically, there is a cottage industry creating TLJ theories by breaking down trailers and actors/directors comments.  And every one of these theories was wrong.

 

http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/all-the-star-wars-the-last-jedi-fan-theories-that-turned-out-to-be-wrong

 

Since the credits rolled on The Force Awakens two years ago, fan theories about where the story would go haven’t been in short supply. If you've been online at all, you know there were almost as many theories as fans.

 

Personally, I spent much of that time avoiding fan theories entirely. Some seemed realistic. Some seemed ridiculous. But all of them were just wild speculation. And obsessive nit-picking and theorizing has never held any appeal to me; I feel that it sucks all the fun out of fandom.

 

So when it came time to sit down and round up many of those fan theories that have now been debunked by The Last Jedi, I was initially pretty apprehensive. Did I really want to dive down that rabbit hole NOW? Turns out, this is actually pretty easy.

 

Which fan theories turned out to be bunk? Nearly all of them.

 

Two years of fevered arguments and suppositions over Rey’s parentage. Two years of insufferable Snoke theories. Two years of debate about what happened to Luke and what his first words would be.

 

In the end, The Last Jedi and Rian Johnson took that collective fan obsession, tossed it in the airlock, and opened the hatch. The Last Jedi not only subverts fan expectations, it intentionally crushes them into the dirt and makes you feel a little silly for investing so much time and effort into your ridiculously convoluted theories.

[Red Five]

10 hours ago, Making Chimichangas said:

 

The thing is, I think all your criticisms, while valid, could literally be applied to just about every major movie franchise: constantly re-use familar plot points, tropes, and situations, just maybe change some of the faces/add a few new characters now and again: see The Expendables, Fast N Furious, any Marvel/DC movie, etc.  Doesn't literature say that there are basically only 3 story types?  Person vs person, person vs nature, person vs self.

 

 

This, 100x this. 

 

[knapplc]

10 hours ago, Making Chimichangas said:

The thing is, I think all your criticisms, while valid, could literally be applied to just about every major movie franchise: constantly re-use familar plot points, tropes, and situations, just maybe change some of the faces/add a few new characters now and again: see The Expendables, Fast N Furious, any Marvel/DC movie, etc. 

 

It doesn't make it any better that other movie franchises do the same/similar things.  Bad is bad, and this movie had several bad parts.

 

11 minutes ago, NUinID said:

 

Your last statement, explains everything to me as to why you didn't like the movie.  You expect them to bewilder you with wonderment like they did when you are a kid, except you don't look at them with the power of suspended  disbelief that a kid would.  You look at them as a cynical adult. 

 

 

 

 

How many bad meals do you have to have at a restaurant before you stop paying for dinner there?  And when you get a bad meal, do you blame yourself for going to that restaurant?  This is such a weird response. 

 

People are blinded by the name Star Wars.  Don't blame those of us who aren't. 

[Red Five]

11 hours ago, knapplc said:

The Empire - the thing that needed explaining the most in this whole new trilogy is What Happened To The New Republic?!?!? Instead, we just have to accept that the Republic, which had stood for thousands of years, is suddenly out AGAIN after reestablishing itself from the couple-three decade reign of the Emperor. We absolutely needed a brief scene explaining how that coalition of systems that grew so big they overthrew the Empire - setting off celebrations around the galaxy - became so impotent so fast that the Empire essentially reestablished itself in... what? A few years? But where did they get the funds to build a huge new fleet, how did they train all those Stormtroopers, how do they have a functional government, how isn't the entire galaxy in turmoil or fighting against them?  The tiny Rebel Resistance fleet... where did the galaxy-wide support go, and how did it go so fast?  This is the least believable part of this whole thing, and that's not even including all the science questions you have to just ignore. 

 

 

I thought it was laid out in TFA that the 1st Order was an offspring of former Empire sympathizers that were "hidden" in the outer rim waiting for a chance to attack.  Also the New Republic had basically outlawed a military force (they were a bit skittish after that whole Order 66 thing), so Leia put together The Resistance on her own as she saw the 1st Order as a threat.  And the planet that Starkiller shot down was the New Republic's capital planet, throwing the New Republic into more chaos.

[NUinID]

8 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

It doesn't make it any better that other movie franchises do the same/similar things.  Bad is bad, and this movie had several bad parts.

 

 

 

 

 

How many bad meals do you have to have at a restaurant before you stop paying for dinner there?  And when you get a bad meal, do you blame yourself for going to that restaurant?  This is such a weird response. 

 

People are blinded by the name Star Wars.  Don't blame those of us who aren't. 

 

It is not a weird response nor am I blinded by being some Star Wars fanboy.  You have passed judgement that it was a bad movie, so there is no more discussion.  Which is what you do.  

[knapplc]

7 minutes ago, NUinID said:

 

It is not a weird response nor am I blinded by being some Star Wars fanboy.  You have passed judgement that it was a bad movie, so there is no more discussion.  Which is what you do.  

 

There's no need to make this personal.

Edited December 18, 2017 by knapplc