The P&R Plague Thread (Covid-19)

[BigRedBuster]

Just now, Archy1221 said:

Actually I asked him to clarify what he was talking about so I understood. Once He said all of them I gave my opinion based on what I work with. That’s not nit picking. 

And I added my 2 cents worth and that's not picking nits either.

[BigRedBuster]

@Archy1221  If for profit healthcare in the US is so great and single payer plans will drive out so many Drs that there's going to be a Dr shortage, why then are there fewer Dr's per capita in the US than lots of other countries?

 

LINK

 

Specialists seem to be about the only place we're winning.

[Born N Bled Red]

17 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

Then how are you going to take out the profit incentive of medicine which you railed about.  Talk about preposterous.  

 

We've already discussed single payer. Just like in any other industry, law especially, some will choose private practice in order to maximize earnings, some will choose a salaried position to maximize quality of life. Nearly every industry has some version of this choice. Then it'd be no different for patient to go to a private practice that it is for patients to go "out of network now, and you pay more."

[Born N Bled Red]

 

1 hour ago, Archy1221 said:

So I’m clear.  Are you suggesting all doctors should be employees of a government health system with capped incomes? 

 

1 hour ago, Born N Bled Red said:

 

You mean, like a salary?

 

And to be clear, you were the one who said "all doctors." 

[BigRedBuster]

@Archy1221 I'll admit to you that I used to be where you're at on this issue.  I was a "no way in hell" guy with public healthcare or a single payer plan.  But.....our healthcare system has gotten so bad as far as costs and results that I've come to the realization that something drastic has to be done.  When I started researching it more, I realized that other countries simply are doing it better and cheaper.  And...this is draining HUGE amounts of money out of our economy for anyone not in healthcare.

 

I used to make the same arguments as you are now.  Especially this one.

1 hour ago, Archy1221 said:

Then how are you going to take out the profit incentive of medicine which you railed about.  Talk about preposterous.  

 

 

What I came to realize is this.  Most people agree that healthcare is way too expensive in the US.  The statistics just don't support a good reason why we should be paying so much.  But....every solution that people come up with, the counter argument is..."but you're taking the profit out".  This is followed by the fear that all of a sudden we are going to have a Dr shortage and nobody is going to be able to get treated and no innovation.  First of all.. YES!!!! WE ARE GOING TO TAKE PROFIT OUT OF THE SYSTEM!!!!  

 

I'm sorry, but when so many people are making so much money off of people being sick and that causes others to not be able to have healthcare....there's a problem.

 

But...on top of all that, we work to take profit out of almost every industry.  That's what we do as consumers. But, for some reason, healthcare is the holy grail that we can't do that to.  Why?  Because of healthcare lobby and so the propaganda and fear they put out to the public.  They also pay ONE HELL of a lot to politicians to keep the profits flowing.

 

You mentioned earlier about Drs talking their kids out of being Drs.  That's obviously someone who doesn't like being a Dr anymore.  I would bet you that if you took away all the paper work required for insurance companies, those Drs would like actually treating patients again.  

 

So, I'm just not buying those fear mongering arguments anymore.

 

This healthcare system has financially ruined way too many people while leaving way too many people off of care to support anymore.  And...that's been going on way before ACA.

[Archy1221]

1 hour ago, Born N Bled Red said:

 

We've already discussed single payer. Just like in any other industry, law especially, some will choose private practice in order to maximize earnings, some will choose a salaried position to maximize quality of life. Nearly every industry has some version of this choice. Then it'd be no different for patient to go to a private practice that it is for patients to go "out of network now, and you pay more."

Law doesn’t have just a single payer so the comparison is mute.  In single payer, it’s just that.   You either accept what one payer has decided you are worth or you don’t work. 

1 hour ago, Born N Bled Red said:

 

 

 

And to be clear, you were the one who said "all doctors." 

To be clear, I was asking if that’s what you meant.  

[BigRedBuster]

3 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

Law doesn’t have just a single payer so the comparison is mute.  In single payer, it’s just that.   You either accept what one payer has decided you are worth or you don’t work. 

 

I'm fairly good friends with the, just retired, hospital administrator here in our home town.  We were talking about this.  He knows there's major issues that need to be addressed and we agree on what those issues are.  I once said to him, before he retired, If your industry doesn't figure it out, it will be figured out for you and there's a good chance you won't like it.

 

He really didn't have a good comeback for that.  But, it's true.  The system has had all the opportunity in the world to fix itself and it's been an epic failure.....and they blame everyone else.  

[knapplc]

Just now, BigRedBuster said:

 

I'm fairly good friends with the, just retired, hospital administrator here in our home town.  We were talking about this.  He knows there's major issues that need to be addressed and we agree on what those issues are.  I once said to him, before he retired, If your industry doesn't figure it out, it will be figured out for you and there's a good chance you won't like it.

 

He really didn't have a good comeback for that.  But, it's true.  The system has had all the opportunity in the world to fix itself and it's been an epic failure.....and they blame everyone else.  

 

The current American healthcare system is unsustainable. Too much profit taking and not enough care.

 

[Archy1221]

33 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

@Archy1221 I'll admit to you that I used to be where you're at on this issue.  I was a "no way in hell" guy with public healthcare or a single payer plan.  But.....our healthcare system has gotten so bad as far as costs and results that I've come to the realization that something drastic has to be done.  When I started researching it more, I realized that other countries simply are doing it better and cheaper.  And...this is draining HUGE amounts of money out of our economy for anyone not in healthcare.

 

I used to make the same arguments as you are now.  Especially this one.

 

 

What I came to realize is this.  Most people agree that healthcare is way too expensive in the US.  The statistics just don't support a good reason why we should be paying so much.  But....every solution that people come up with, the counter argument is..."but you're taking the profit out".  This is followed by the fear that all of a sudden we are going to have a Dr shortage and nobody is going to be able to get treated and no innovation.  First of all.. YES!!!! WE ARE GOING TO TAKE PROFIT OUT OF THE SYSTEM!!!!  

 

I'm sorry, but when so many people are making so much money off of people being sick and that causes others to not be able to have healthcare....there's a problem.

 

But...on top of all that, we work to take profit out of almost every industry.  That's what we do as consumers. But, for some reason, healthcare is the holy grail that we can't do that to.  Why?  Because of healthcare lobby and so the propaganda and fear they put out to the public.  They also pay ONE HELL of a lot to politicians to keep the profits flowing.

 

You mentioned earlier about Drs talking their kids out of being Drs.  That's obviously someone who doesn't like being a Dr anymore.  I would bet you that if you took away all the paper work required for insurance companies, those Drs would like actually treating patients again.  

 

So, I'm just not buying those fear mongering arguments anymore.

 

This healthcare system has financially ruined way too many people while leaving way too many people off of care to support anymore.  And...that's been going on way before ACA.

First off, even though we are on opposite ends of this I do appreciate the discussion and your viewpoint.  
 

I also accept and agree that costs need to be reigned in.  I think there is bloat in most if not all aspects of the system.  
 

I disagree 1000% that our outcomes are worse than other countries you subscribe to.  You use mortality rate and cost to say others are doing it better.  You have to look at the base of patients being treated and what they are being treated for and also compare how countries count deaths otherwise you end up comparing two different things.  
 

If Americans relied on a Mediterranean or Far East diet, our type II Diabetes rate would Be cut pretty drastically, thereby cutting the overall costs and increasing mortality. 
 

I also agree the politicians need to be less controlled by lobbyists of all flavor including the Hospital lobby. 

[Ratt Mhule]

Hey socialism! Look, you guys, socialism! Oh wait, its a bunch of corporations. I forgot, were okay with that type of socialism in this country. No stimulus checks for struggling families but PPP for these corporations while small business gets the scraps. 

 

[teachercd]

I will say it again.  All medical/dental offices/hospitals whatever...need to have a f#&%ing menu with prices posted.  Period.  At all times.

 

Why is it a secret?  Why don't I know, ahead of time, how much my cleaning costs?

 

The problem really isn't the docs/dentists, the problem is we put up with it. 

 

Imagine dropping your car off at your mechanic and he (or she, relax) calls you and goes "Yeah, it turns out your Johnson Rod is shot, so I will go ahead and fix that for you, you can pick it up in 2 days" click.

 

Then you show up and get a bill.  No one would put up with that, no one.

 

I sliced the tip of my ummmm,, well...I will say finger, off in August.  I tried fixing it myself and could not, so I went to emergicare the next day.  They "fixed it"

 

I got a bill 3 months later for 350 dollars...the splint they gave me, that I did not ask for at all, cost 25 dollars!  Had I known that, I would have said "no thanks, I don't need that" and guess what, I didn't need it!

 

The "soak" they did for my, ummmm, finger, cost like 75 dollars.  It was freaking soap.  Had I known that I would have "no thanks, just use water, and then wrap it up"

 

BUT I HAD NO IDEA WHAT THE PRICES WERE!  Sadly it is my fault...but still that s#!t should be posted.  

 

I thought the f#&%ing splint was free, I really did.  

 

Had they had a menu, I would have saved easily 250 dollars.

[DevoHusker]

55 minutes ago, teachercd said:

I will say it again.  All medical/dental offices/hospitals whatever...need to have a f#&%ing menu with prices posted.  Period.  At all times.

 

Why is it a secret?  Why don't I know, ahead of time, how much my cleaning costs?

 

The problem really isn't the docs/dentists, the problem is we put up with it. 

 

Imagine dropping your car off at your mechanic and he (or she, relax) calls you and goes "Yeah, it turns out your Johnson Rod is shot, so I will go ahead and fix that for you, you can pick it up in 2 days" click.

 

Then you show up and get a bill.  No one would put up with that, no one.

 

I sliced the tip of my ummmm,, well...I will say finger, off in August.  I tried fixing it myself and could not, so I went to emergicare the next day.  They "fixed it"

 

I got a bill 3 months later for 350 dollars...the splint they gave me, that I did not ask for at all, cost 25 dollars!  Had I known that, I would have said "no thanks, I don't need that" and guess what, I didn't need it!

 

The "soak" they did for my, ummmm, finger, cost like 75 dollars.  It was freaking soap.  Had I known that I would have "no thanks, just use water, and then wrap it up"

 

BUT I HAD NO IDEA WHAT THE PRICES WERE!  Sadly it is my fault...but still that s#!t should be posted.  

 

I thought the f#&%ing splint was free, I really did.  

 

Had they had a menu, I would have saved easily 250 dollars.

I certainly hope your, um...finger, is back to game day performance 

[Archy1221]

2 hours ago, BigRedBuster said:

 

I'm fairly good friends with the, just retired, hospital administrator here in our home town.  We were talking about this.  He knows there's major issues that need to be addressed and we agree on what those issues are.  I once said to him, before he retired, If your industry doesn't figure it out, it will be figured out for you and there's a good chance you won't like it.

 

He really didn't have a good comeback for that.  But, it's true.  The system has had all the opportunity in the world to fix itself and it's been an epic failure.....and they blame everyone else.  

Did he agree with single payer after speaking with you?  

[commando]

i would certainly expect health care costs to go down if we didn't have to pay for all the insurance company profit margins on top of the health care

[Archy1221]

Huh...imagine that.