Trump's Post Election Fallout: Legal & Obstruction actions

[BigRedBuster]

16 minutes ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

a hallway with more doors.  Why would that particular door become a redline and why didn't anyone else know about it? 

 

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It was not any kind of metaphorical Rubicon.  The guard panicked and shot the lady trying to get through.  The other officers were surprised that it happened. 

 

Well it was mostly obvious that the mob didn't have weapons because they weren't brandishing any.   But if you assert the right of the Capitol police to shoot down the mob, then why would you wait until they are that far into the building to unleash live ammunition?

Because appropriate security was denied.  Wonder who did that?

 

No actual invasion or breaking of law happened till people actually broke windows and entered the building?  What justification would there be to shoot people outside the building?  Would have you supported that?

[Enhance]

21 minutes ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

Well it was mostly obvious that the mob didn't have weapons because they weren't brandishing any.   But if you assert the right of the Capitol police to shoot down the mob, then why would you wait until they are that far into the building to unleash live ammunition?

As to your first bolded line, police officers are trained to expect hidden or concealed weapons in riot situations. Many of the rioters had backpacks. As a police officer, you're not going to assume or trust anything in that situation. There's nothing "mostly obvious" about an unprecedented situation like this.

 

As to your second bolded line, I'm not a trained Capitol law enforcement officer. I don't know their protocols. They were clearly unprepared. I also don't know who or what was down that hallway. Neither do you. If there was a genuine fear of safety from the officer for their well-being, or a high priority individual down that hall that the officer feared would be in danger, then shooting to kill would make a lot of sense. Until we know facts, all any of us can do is speculate.

 

I just hope for consistency in these types of conversations. I don't mind people asking the question about whether or not Ashli Babbitt's death was warranted. But, there seem to be a number of people (namely conservatives) who are questioning Babbitt's death... yet are suspiciously quiet or heavily on the side of law enforcement when Black Americans are killed under questionable circumstances.

[Notre Dame Joe]

1 hour ago, Enhance said:

As to your first bolded line, police officers are trained to expect hidden or concealed weapons in riot situations. Many of the rioters had backpacks. As a police officer, you're not going to assume or trust anything in that situation. There's nothing "mostly obvious" about an unprecedented situation like this.

THis one is pretty obvious.  The mob was using broom handles and fire-extinguishers and other weapons of opportunity like other rioters.  If "possible hidden weapons" justifies the shooting then why was Babbit the only one shot so deep inside the capitol?  

 

One thing I cannot believe no one has mentioned yet is that there were cops behind Babbit.  This was not a football line of scrimmage with a scrum between mob vs cops.  There were two cops on the mobs side of the door, they step away.  But then we see a "tactical officer" close behind babbit.  

 

So if she needed to be shot then why did the officers in close proximity do so? 

Answer: she didn't need to be shot. It is quite obvious. 

 

Video shows fatal shooting of Ashli Babbitt in the Capitol (msn.com)

 

1 hour ago, Enhance said:

I just hope for consistency in these types of conversations. I don't mind people asking the question about whether or not Ashli Babbitt's death was warranted. But, there seem to be a number of people (namely conservatives) who are questioning Babbitt's death... yet are suspiciously quiet or heavily on the side of law enforcement when Black Americans are killed under questionable circumstances.

Consistently inconsistent.

[Enhance]

18 minutes ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

THis one is pretty obvious.  The mob was using broom handles and fire-extinguishers and other weapons of opportunity like other rioters.  If "possible hidden weapons" justifies the shooting then why was Babbit the only one shot so deep inside the capitol?  

I've provided a potential answer to the bolded already. Outside of that, there isn't one right now. You're fishing for a different answer. If that's what you want, you probably won't find it here.

 

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One thing I cannot believe no one has mentioned yet is that there were cops behind Babbit.  This was not a football line of scrimmage with a scrum between mob vs cops.  There were two cops on the mobs side of the door, they step away.  But then we see a "tactical officer" close behind babbit. 

I'll admit that I found this situation curious, as well. But, again, I can't provide the answer you appear to be seeking. Only the results of an investigation can.

 

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So if she needed to be shot then why did the officers in close proximity do so? 
Answer: she didn't need to be shot. It is quite obvious.

 

You can't say this with any objectivity right now. We simply don't know enough. This is as irresponsible as me stating that it's obvious she needed to be shot.

 

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Consistently inconsistent.

100% agree. I appreciate we can acknowledge this issue.

[Moiraine]

Maybe we should stop treating this like it’s a random building with random people in it.

 

I am ok with the police reacting more violently when people are breaking into a building containing the country’s entire legislative branch as part of a mob.

 

That context is important. The people guarding the president are allowed more freedom to take risks if he’s in danger. The same should be true for the people guarding reps and senators.

[Notre Dame Joe]

21 minutes ago, Enhance said:

I've provided a potential answer to the bolded already. Outside of that, there isn't one right now. You're fishing for a different answer. If that's what you want, you probably won't find it here.

 

I'll admit that I found this situation curious, as well. But, again, I can't provide the answer you appear to be seeking. Only the results of an investigation can.

 

 

You can't say this with any objectivity right now. We simply don't know enough. This is as irresponsible as me stating that it's obvious she needed to be shot.

 

100% agree. I appreciate we can acknowledge this issue.

 

My opinion is pretty fixed right now because of the dearth of discussion.  There has been a lot of news stories on the mob and even the shooting but almost no debate on whether it was legally or morally justified.  I cannot find anyone arguing for the shooter beyond the most generic terms, often rephrasing the same abstractions. 

 

Likewise as a white Trump supporter, Mrs Babbit is not getting the martyr status.  There will be no sanctimonious millionaire basketball players  lecturing us on police brutality.  No D has called for the defunding of the police in the last 6 days.

 

[Ratt Mhule]

2 hours ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

a hallway with more doors.  Why would that particular door become a redline and why didn't anyone else know about it? 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

It was not any kind of metaphorical Rubicon.  The guard panicked and shot the lady trying to get through.  The other officers were surprised that it happened. 

 

Well it was mostly obvious that the mob didn't have weapons because they weren't brandishing any.   But if you assert the right of the Capitol police to shoot down the mob, then why would you wait until they are that far into the building to unleash live ammunition?

So crutches, flag poles and metal barricades used to bludgeon officers arent weapons?

[commando]

2 minutes ago, Frott Scost said:

So crutches, flag poles and metal barricades used to bludgeon officers arent weapons?

fire extinguishers

[commando]

4 minutes ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

 

My opinion is pretty fixed right now because of the dearth of discussion.  There has been a lot of news stories on the mob and even the shooting but almost no debate on whether it was legally or morally justified.  I cannot find anyone arguing for the shooter beyond the most generic terms, often rephrasing the same abstractions. 

 

Likewise as a white Trump supporter, Mrs Babbit is not getting the martyr status.  There will be no sanctimonious millionaire basketball players  lecturing us on police brutality.  No D has called for the defunding of the police in the last 6 days.

 

rioter shot  invading capitol building  is already a martyr in the far right echo chambers.   please keep it there.

[Moiraine]

6 minutes ago, commando said:

fire extinguishers

 

 

Bear spray

[funhusker]

43 minutes ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

 

My opinion is pretty fixed right now because of the dearth of discussion.  There has been a lot of news stories on the mob and even the shooting but almost no debate on whether it was legally or morally justified.  I cannot find anyone arguing for the shooter beyond the most generic terms, often rephrasing the same abstractions. 

 

Likewise as a white Trump supporter, Mrs Babbit is not getting the martyr status.  There will be no sanctimonious millionaire basketball players  lecturing us on police brutality.  No D has called for the defunding of the police in the last 6 days.

 

Because she’s a f#&%ing traitor.

[commando]

45 minutes ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

 

My opinion is pretty fixed right now because of the dearth of discussion.  There has been a lot of news stories on the mob and even the shooting but almost no debate on whether it was legally or morally justified.  I cannot find anyone arguing for the shooter beyond the most generic terms, often rephrasing the same abstractions. 

 

Likewise as a white Trump supporter, Mrs Babbit is not getting the martyr status.  There will be no sanctimonious millionaire basketball players  lecturing us on police brutality.  No D has called for the defunding of the police in the last 6 days.

 

if you support this, if you are all for this insurrection, you are an american traitor.   since you never answered me after i asked this yesterday...i ask you again...do you support trumps insurrection against the United States of America?    

[Decoy73]

36 minutes ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

Likewise as a white Trump supporter, Mrs Babbit is not getting the martyr status.  There will be no sanctimonious millionaire basketball players  lecturing us on police brutality.  No D has called for the defunding of the police in the last 6 days.

It’s unfortunate because “white Trump supporters “ have been battling social injustice for decades.  It’s like every time I turn on the news, another unarmed “white Trump supporter “ has been shot by police somewhere in our country.  Once, this “white Trump supporter “ was out jogging and two thugs gunned him down because they suspected him of trespassing.  Just terrible.   I really feel bad for these “white Trump supporter “ people and hopefully someday soon they will be treated with the same respect and dignity afforded to all Americans.  

[Notre Dame Joe]

1 hour ago, Moiraine said:

Maybe we should stop treating this like it’s a random building with random people in it.

 

I am ok with the police reacting more violently when people are breaking into a building containing the country’s entire legislative branch as part of a mob.

 

That context is important. The people guarding the president are allowed more freedom to take risks if he’s in danger. The same should be true for the people guarding reps and senators.

The mob tried to force their way into the White House last summer and President Trump had to be taken into a shelter.  They failed because security was prepared, not because the mob restrained themselves.  There was no persecution of liberals or mass censorship by Big Tech.  There was a lot of awe and admiration from the Left followed by fake outrage when the cops  broke the siege of the White House; with tear gas, no one got shot in the throat.

57 minutes ago, Decoy73 said:

It’s unfortunate because “white Trump supporters “ have been battling social injustice for decades.  It’s like every time I turn on the news, another unarmed “white Trump supporter “ has been shot by police somewhere in our country.  Once, this “white Trump supporter “ was out jogging and two thugs gunned him down because they suspected him of trespassing.  Just terrible.   I really feel bad for these “white Trump supporter “ people and hopefully someday soon they will be treated with the same respect and dignity afforded to all Americans.  

 

I've heard a lot of high horse liberals* say It woulda been different if it had been a black mob.  But they never finish the thought.  Tell us, how would it be different if BLM/Antifa stormed into the Capitol?  Do you think the guard would have shot a black lady when she tried to crawl through the door window?

 

* and Washington's biggest donkey.

[knapplc]

At least we've learned our lesson on when to curtail crazy hate speech after last week's attempted insurrection.