QB Recruiting, Development, and Play Under Bo/Beck vs Riley/Langsdorf

[Red Five]

And yet, in four out of the last five seasons, Taylor and Tommy put up equal or better passing efficiency numbers than OSU's NFL QB factory.

 

I am hopeful that access to better talents at NU, like this kid hopefully (and especially in supporting cast), will allow Riley and company to improve their QB results. I just find the bashing of the old staff unnecessary and strange given the clear track records.

 

 

Here are the numbers. The efficiency numbers seem pretty similar. The thing that sticks out to me is the completion percentage. OSU/Mannion is night and day ahead of TA.

 

2014

Armstrong 133.0 (53.3% completion)

Mannion 128.3 (62.3%)

 

2013

3 Headed Monster 129.4 (57.7%) / Armstrong 124.3 (51.9%)

Mannion 146.5 (66.3%)

 

2012

Martinez 141.6 (62.0%) - 1st Team All B1G

Mannion 138.8 (64.7%)

 

2011

Martinez 126.5 (56.3%)

Mannion 127.1 (64.5%)

 

2010

Martinez 138.8 (59.2%)

Katz 126.4 (60.0%)

[Red Five]

Also, Mannion seemed to regress last year according to those numbers, after improving each year. Not sure why w/o having a better understanding of the Beavers. The loss of WRs Wheaton (3rd rd pick 2013) and Cooks (1st rd pick 2014) maybe had something to do with it?

[Stumpy1]

 

And yet, in four out of the last five seasons, Taylor and Tommy put up equal or better passing efficiency numbers than OSU's NFL QB factory.

 

I am hopeful that access to better talents at NU, like this kid hopefully (and especially in supporting cast), will allow Riley and company to improve their QB results. I just find the bashing of the old staff unnecessary and strange given the clear track records.

 

 

Here are the numbers. The efficiency numbers seem pretty similar. The thing that sticks out to me is the completion percentage. OSU/Mannion is night and day ahead of TA.

 

2014

Armstrong 133.0 (53.3% completion)

Mannion 128.3 (62.3%)

 

2013

3 Headed Monster 129.4 (57.7%) / Armstrong 124.3 (51.9%)

Mannion 146.5 (66.3%)

 

2012

Martinez 141.6 (62.0%) - 1st Team All B1G

Mannion 138.8 (64.7%)

 

2011

Martinez 126.5 (56.3%)

Mannion 127.1 (64.5%)

 

2010

Martinez 138.8 (59.2%)

Katz 126.4 (60.0%)

 

I will add a few more stats to this.

 

 

Mannion:

Yr Pass Att. TDs Ints

2011 473 16 18

2012 309 15 13

2013 603 37 15

2014 453 15 8

1838 83 54

 

Taylor:

2011 288 13 8

2012 368 23 12

2013(4) 110 10 2

766 46 22

 

Tommy:

2013(9) 113 9 8

2014 345 22 12

458 31 20

[Mavric]

 

 

 

And yet, in four out of the last five seasons, Taylor and Tommy put up equal or better passing efficiency numbers than OSU's NFL QB factory.

 

I am hopeful that access to better talents at NU, like this kid hopefully (and especially in supporting cast), will allow Riley and company to improve their QB results. I just find the bashing of the old staff unnecessary and strange given the clear track records.

Riley is regarded as a QB guru. Beck is regarded as???? Riley makes better qbs. You can use your numbers etc. But the simple fact is Riley has produced more NFL roster QBs at OSU than NU in how many decades???

 

The other simple fact is Riley has zero championships of any kind at the collegiate level. Producing NFL roster quarterbacks has not been the championship ingredient at Nebraska and certainly hasn't done anything special for Riley's career winning percentage.

 

 

At Nebraska no, but it's been an ingredient at almost every other championship-winning school. Taking a look at the national champions for the last 10 years:

 

2005: Texas - Vince Young (3rd overall pick)

2007: LSU - Matt Flynn (209th overall pick)

2008: Florida - Tim Tebow (25th overall pick)

2009: Alabama - Greg McElroy (208th overall pick)

2010: Auburn - Cam Newton (1st overall pick)

2011/2012: Alabama - AJ McCarron (164th overall pick)

2013: Florida State - Jameis Winston (1st overall pick)

 

I didn't include the 2014 Buckeyes since obviously none of the QBs on the roster have declared for the draft or are draft eligible yet. The '06 Gators are the only championship-winning team in the past 10 years to not have their starting QB (Chris Leak) get drafted, and Chris was signed by the Bears immediately after the draft. Yes, some of these guys were reaches or outright busts and several were very late picks, but they were still good enough to at least get signed to an NFL roster as a QB. All of those teams have been loaded with talent, so having an NFL caliber QB obviously isn't the only reason why they won championships, but it was clearly a big part.

 

Eh, I only see one who was even average as an NFL QB (Newton) with Winston TBD. Saying they were signed isn't really saying a lot. Scott Frost, Eric Crouch and Taylor Martinez all signed.

[Hammerhead]

 

 

 

 

And yet, in four out of the last five seasons, Taylor and Tommy put up equal or better passing efficiency numbers than OSU's NFL QB factory.

 

I am hopeful that access to better talents at NU, like this kid hopefully (and especially in supporting cast), will allow Riley and company to improve their QB results. I just find the bashing of the old staff unnecessary and strange given the clear track records.

Riley is regarded as a QB guru. Beck is regarded as???? Riley makes better qbs. You can use your numbers etc. But the simple fact is Riley has produced more NFL roster QBs at OSU than NU in how many decades???

 

The other simple fact is Riley has zero championships of any kind at the collegiate level. Producing NFL roster quarterbacks has not been the championship ingredient at Nebraska and certainly hasn't done anything special for Riley's career winning percentage.

 

 

At Nebraska no, but it's been an ingredient at almost every other championship-winning school. Taking a look at the national champions for the last 10 years:

 

2005: Texas - Vince Young (3rd overall pick)

2007: LSU - Matt Flynn (209th overall pick)

2008: Florida - Tim Tebow (25th overall pick)

2009: Alabama - Greg McElroy (208th overall pick)

2010: Auburn - Cam Newton (1st overall pick)

2011/2012: Alabama - AJ McCarron (164th overall pick)

2013: Florida State - Jameis Winston (1st overall pick)

 

I didn't include the 2014 Buckeyes since obviously none of the QBs on the roster have declared for the draft or are draft eligible yet. The '06 Gators are the only championship-winning team in the past 10 years to not have their starting QB (Chris Leak) get drafted, and Chris was signed by the Bears immediately after the draft. Yes, some of these guys were reaches or outright busts and several were very late picks, but they were still good enough to at least get signed to an NFL roster as a QB. All of those teams have been loaded with talent, so having an NFL caliber QB obviously isn't the only reason why they won championships, but it was clearly a big part.

 

Eh, I only see one who was even average as an NFL QB (Newton) with Winston TBD. Saying they were signed isn't really saying a lot. Scott Frost, Eric Crouch and Taylor Martinez all signed.

 

 

Flynn has had his moments, and VY had a very promising start to his career, but I did mention that most of them haven't exactly been superstars. Frost was drafted to play safety, Crouch was drafted to play WR, and Martinez failed his physical so his contract was voided, so they're only really comparable to Chris Leak on that list.

[junior4949]

I honestly don't understand all the negativity pointed at Beck. Beck was about as much of our problem as Shawn Watson was before him. Watson has made enough of an impression that Strong asked him to follow him to Texas and has a pretty good gig. Beck has a pretty good gig at Ohio State. I really can't understand why the OC during Bo's tenure always got the brunt of the blame. When the head man says to get the square peg into the round hole, you pretty much gotta keep trying.

 

The biggest problem with the QB development over the past seven years was the fact we recruited extremely raw talent there. Take Cody Green for example. He didn't even get to play I believe his junior year in high school due to injury. He was extremely raw. We just didn't dedicate much coaching in this area. We were basically trying to ride raw athleticism to get us to the promise land. It didn't work out well. I still don't believe we just missed horribly recruiting. We missed horribly developing!

[huKSer]

 

 

And yet, in four out of the last five seasons, Taylor and Tommy put up equal or better passing efficiency numbers than OSU's NFL QB factory.

 

I am hopeful that access to better talents at NU, like this kid hopefully (and especially in supporting cast), will allow Riley and company to improve their QB results. I just find the bashing of the old staff unnecessary and strange given the clear track records.

 

 

Here are the numbers. The efficiency numbers seem pretty similar. The thing that sticks out to me is the completion percentage. OSU/Mannion is night and day ahead of TA.

 

2014

Armstrong 133.0 (53.3% completion)

Mannion 128.3 (62.3%)

 

2013

3 Headed Monster 129.4 (57.7%) / Armstrong 124.3 (51.9%)

Mannion 146.5 (66.3%)

 

2012

Martinez 141.6 (62.0%) - 1st Team All B1G

Mannion 138.8 (64.7%)

 

2011

Martinez 126.5 (56.3%)

Mannion 127.1 (64.5%)

 

2010

Martinez 138.8 (59.2%)

Katz 126.4 (60.0%)

 

I will add a few more stats to this.

 

 

Mannion:

Yr Pass Att. TDs Ints

2011 473 16 18

2012 309 15 13

2013 603 37 15

2014 453 15 8

1838 83 54

 

Taylor:

2011 288 13 8

2012 368 23 12

2013(4) 110 10 2

766 46 22

 

Tommy:

2013(9) 113 9 8

2014 345 22 12

458 31 20

 

This is what I wanted to look at. Then I realized that numbers don't tell the whole story about a QB - dropped passes, leaky O-line, injuries etc. I guess you have to look at game film to see if freshman mistakes are eliminated by time he is a senior, or is he doing the same dumb stuff and not learning.

[mnhusker]

I have a hard time speaking to how riley will do although conventional wisdom is that he will be a much better coach for developing talent. I think the past staff was not able to make QB's better, I thing they were left to flounder year over year while showing marginal improvement. Luckily these were talented guys who found a way to make the best of the situation. Leaning on the run (which is a good think in my book) is also a great way to help out a QB.

[Guy Chamberlin]

This didn't start or end with Bo. In the last 50 years Nebraska has had a grand total of one quarterback who looked comfortable taking an NFL snap: Vince Ferragamo. And Vince was already a heralded Pac 8 quarterback when he transferred. Nebraska built the offense around him.

 

Jerry Tagge, Dave Humm and Gerry Gdowski were close to NFL talent, but only second or third string close.

 

Zac Taylor, Sam Keller and Joe Ganz had legitimate arms, but their teams aren't remembered fondly, and that pro-set style didn't take them to the pros.

 

The rest of the Nebraska quarterbacks were tailored to the system, and Nebraska ran an offense that didn't prepare quarterbacks for the NFL, and we really didn't care as long as the team was winning the power running game.

 

I'm not sure anyone really "developed" guys like Tommie Frazier, Scott Frost, Eric Crouch and Taylor Martinez. They came in with their skill sets and confidence in place, and in the case of Frazier, Frost and Crouch, a strong supporting cast on both sides of the ball. They became slightly better passers with experience, but none could sniff an NFL offense.

 

Frazier, Frost and Crouch will deservedly be remembered as Husker Greats, but I think it would be a very different story if they had to play with a 2011 - 2014 Nebraska Defense.

 

By the same token, put Zac Taylor, Taylor Martinez or Tommy Armstrong on one of those teams with a vintage O-Line and Black Shirt defense and they'd be legends, too. Nobody wants to dissect Tommie Frazier's completion percentage.

 

I don't think quarterback was the real issue during the Callahan and Pelini years. It was historically bad defenses.

[NUance]

This didn't start or end with Bo. In the last 50 years Nebraska has had a grand total of one quarterback who looked comfortable taking an NFL snap: Vince Ferragamo. And Vince was already a heralded Pac 8 quarterback when he transferred. Nebraska built the offense around him.

 

Jerry Tagge, Dave Humm and Gerry Gdowski were close to NFL talent, but only second or third string close.

 

Zac Taylor, Sam Keller and Joe Ganz had legitimate arms, but their teams aren't remembered fondly, and that pro-set style didn't take them to the pros.

 

The rest of the Nebraska quarterbacks were tailored to the system, and Nebraska ran an offense that didn't prepare quarterbacks for the NFL, and we really didn't care as long as the team was winning the power running game.

 

I'm not sure anyone really "developed" guys like Tommie Frazier, Scott Frost, Eric Crouch and Taylor Martinez. They came in with their skill sets and confidence in place, and in the case of Frazier, Frost and Crouch, a strong supporting cast on both sides of the ball. They became slightly better passers with experience, but none could sniff an NFL offense.

 

Frazier, Frost and Crouch will deservedly be remembered as Husker Greats, but I think it would be a very different story if they had to play with a 2011 - 2014 Nebraska Defense.

 

By the same token, put Zac Taylor, Taylor Martinez or Tommy Armstrong on one of those teams with a vintage O-Line and Black Shirt defense and they'd be legends, too. Nobody wants to dissect Tommie Frazier's completion percentage.

 

I don't think quarterback was the real issue during the Callahan and Pelini years. It was historically bad defenses.

 

What about Bruce Mathison? He spent several years in the NFL. Not a top QB in the NFL, but he played a fair amount. Barely played a down at Nebraska. He was behind Turner Gill. And then there's Brook Berringer. No doubt the best fit for the NFL since Ferragamo.

 

But I agree with you that NU hasn't sent many QB to the NFL. Our QBs play safety in the NFL.

[QMany]

Also, Mannion seemed to regress last year according to those numbers, after improving each year. Not sure why w/o having a better understanding of the Beavers. The loss of WRs Wheaton (3rd rd pick 2013) and Cooks (1st rd pick 2014) maybe had something to do with it?

I'm hoping it was the Langsdorf-effect.

[Red Five]

 

Also, Mannion seemed to regress last year according to those numbers, after improving each year. Not sure why w/o having a better understanding of the Beavers. The loss of WRs Wheaton (3rd rd pick 2013) and Cooks (1st rd pick 2014) maybe had something to do with it?

I'm hoping it was the Langsdorf-effect.

 

Yes. Let's go with this.

[Red Five]

I honestly don't understand all the negativity pointed at Beck. Beck was about as much of our problem as Shawn Watson was before him. Watson has made enough of an impression that Strong asked him to follow him to Texas and has a pretty good gig. Beck has a pretty good gig at Ohio State. I really can't understand why the OC during Bo's tenure always got the brunt of the blame. When the head man says to get the square peg into the round hole, you pretty much gotta keep trying.

 

The biggest problem with the QB development over the past seven years was the fact we recruited extremely raw talent there. Take Cody Green for example. He didn't even get to play I believe his junior year in high school due to injury. He was extremely raw. We just didn't dedicate much coaching in this area. We were basically trying to ride raw athleticism to get us to the promise land. It didn't work out well. I still don't believe we just missed horribly recruiting. We missed horribly developing!

The bolded answers my negativity towards Beck. He basically had Ganz around to be the QB coach.

[zoogs]

I honestly don't understand all the negativity pointed at Beck. Beck was about as much of our problem as Shawn Watson was before him. Watson has made enough of an impression that Strong asked him to follow him to Texas and has a pretty good gig. Beck has a pretty good gig at Ohio State. I really can't understand why the OC during Bo's tenure always got the brunt of the blame. When the head man says to get the square peg into the round hole, you pretty much gotta keep trying.

 

The biggest problem with the QB development over the past seven years was the fact we recruited extremely raw talent there. Take Cody Green for example. He didn't even get to play I believe his junior year in high school due to injury. He was extremely raw. We just didn't dedicate much coaching in this area. We were basically trying to ride raw athleticism to get us to the promise land. It didn't work out well. I still don't believe we just missed horribly recruiting. We missed horribly developing!

Yeah. The whole thing was Bo's problem. He had a big hand in how the offense was run and how its players were managed. Should've just let his guys do their thing. As it turns out, Nebraska really didn't have such bad OCs. But we wouldn't know it.

[cg_8]

The bolded answers my negativity towards Beck. He basically had Ganz around to be the QB coach.

Perhaps Ganz shouldn't have been put in that position. Ganz never ran the type of offense Beck ran. He may have had a great grasp of it, but his understanding of the game was from 2 years of experience playing college ball and being a graduate assistant.

 

Blame Bo for putting him in that position and trusting Ganz. I'd hate to say anything bad about Ganz, because he played about as well as you want a QB to play here at Nebraska. But truth be told, Bo put too much trust in the guy, and now he's just spouting off stories about it. Meanwhile, we have a guy that was hired as a QB coach for a QB that is arguably seen as an elite QB (I don't think Eli is elite, but he is at the very least, one of the better QB's in the league). Has Ganz found a job yet?

 

You can put part of that on Beck too for allowing it to happen. That might be inexperience on his part too. This was Beck's first go at running an offense his way, and he may not have had the best way of managing it. That includes how he communicates and coaches his QB's.

 

I remember him talking about Martinez in 2011 and showing film of Martinez's bad habits during the season. One play after the next, just spouting how poor the footing is, how his timing could have been better, etc. I was watching and saying to myself "Why didn't you immediately address these issues? Why didn't you spend some time addressing this stuff?" I get they only have so many hours, but Beck had an understanding of what it took to make Martinez better, and it seemed like, he didn't really do anything about it.

 

I have a feeling that Langsdorf isn't going to just let those things fly.