Gun Control

[sho]

I have no issues w/people owning guns.  Give people a shotgun/rifle let them hunt deer and turkey and whatever it is people hunt.   I'm actually OK with people (assuming they are sane) owning handguns.  I have no qualms with that.   Yes people get killed by handguns daily, but that's not may main concern yet.   I want to end mass shootings.   I want AR-15s and the like out of civilian's hands.    @walksaloneI saw you mentioned you own and carry a piece earlier, and clearly sounds like you've had a lot of training, as a gun person, why should joe blow down the street have a semi-automatic rifle?   Whats the logical reason besides having shriveled richard issues?   I think if we did a better job of limiting access to those types of weapons, while still allowing citizens to obtain handguns/rifles/shotguns would be an easy compromise.    While any loss of life sucks, I think we can significantly curb mass shootings by restricting access to certain types of weapons.

[knapplc]

1 minute ago, walksalone said:

 

You've already said all this multiple times, I get it.

 

I guess there is such little faith in humanity that your level of trust of another person is lower than mine, and mine is negligible.

 

That's the problem. It's been said many many many many many many times since Columbine, since Sandy Hook, since Virginia Tech, and people still aren't understanding that their gun fetish is killing Americans. So we have to keep saying it, I guess.

[walksalone]

1 minute ago, knapplc said:

That's the problem. It's been said many many many many many many times since Columbine, since Sandy Hook, since Virginia Tech, and people still aren't understanding that their gun fetish is killing Americans. So we have to keep saying it, I guess.

 

It's those suffering from mental disorders, killing Americans with guns

[knapplc]

1 minute ago, walksalone said:

 

It's those suffering from mental disorders, killing Americans with guns

 

It's the guns. Every country has people with mental disorders. America is unique in its access to guns, and thus gun violence like we saw yesterday.

[walksalone]

1 minute ago, knapplc said:

 

It's the guns. Every country has people with mental disorders. America is unique in its access to guns, and thus gun violence like we saw yesterday.

 

I'm sorry

[DevoHusker]

7 minutes ago, sho said:

I have no issues w/people owning guns.  Give people a shotgun/rifle let them hunt deer and turkey and whatever it is people hunt.   I'm actually OK with people (assuming they are sane) owning handguns.  I have no qualms with that.   Yes people get killed by handguns daily, but that's not may main concern yet.   I want to end mass shootings.   I want AR-15s and the like out of civilian's hands.    @walksaloneI saw you mentioned you own and carry a piece earlier, and clearly sounds like you've had a lot of training, as a gun person, why should joe blow down the street have a semi-automatic rifle?   Whats the logical reason besides having shriveled richard issues?   I think if we did a better job of limiting access to those types of weapons, while still allowing citizens to obtain handguns/rifles/shotguns would be an easy compromise.    While any loss of life sucks, I think we can significantly curb mass shootings by restricting access to certain types of weapons.

Not trying to downplay your stance, but waaay more people are shot with pistols. And, the pos at Viginia Tech didn't have an AR, just 2 9mm, and left 49 victims.

 

I would rather see more stringent steps for owning ANY gun, rather than this myopic focus on AR style weapons.

[sho]

2 minutes ago, DevoHusker said:

Not trying to downplay your stance, but waaay more people are shot with pistols. And, the pos at Viginia Tech didn't have an AR, just 2 9mm, and left 49 victims.

 

I would rather see more stringent steps for owning ANY gun, rather than this myopic focus on AR style weapons.

I know and understand your point with handguns.   The VT one, for me is an outlier, and he was a true POS, chaining doors and preventing people to escape.   But looking at mass deaths since columbine, outside of VT, the weapon of choice was the AR.   I know banning that, and similar weapons, won't prevent it, but I feel it will greatly reduce the curve on mass shootings.   Right now, I want to stop the next Route 66, Parkland, Columbine, Sandy Hook, Pulse etc  after that we can start focusing on the next pressure point and fire arms.

 

I am also realistic and know, handguns need to be off the table if we look at having any meaningful discussion about gun reform.   Can't take the whole pie in one sitting, it won't work and it's not realistic.

[BigRedBuster]

22 minutes ago, walksalone said:

 

It's those suffering from mental disorders, killing Americans with guns

 

20 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

It's the guns. Every country has people with mental disorders. America is unique in its access to guns, and thus gun violence like we saw yesterday.

 

Thank you both for illustrating the problem in the debate.

 

The answer to the question is BOTH.  We need a comprehensive approach to this without people claiming one direction is right and the other is wrong.  Gun owners and the gun industry need to realize they need to be part of the solution.  People also need to realize access to mental health help and recognizing when it's a problem in a person is also a large part of the problem.

 

And, you know what?  There will be mistakes made in whatever approach we are willing to take.  But, that's when you realize that and adjust what you're doing.

 

But.....sitting back and not doing anything because people think it's all in one direction or nothing....is the wrong approach.

[knapplc]

2 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

Thank you both for illustrating the problem in the debate.

 

The answer to the question is BOTH.  We need a comprehensive approach to this without people claiming one direction is right and the other is wrong.  Gun owners and the gun industry need to realize they need to be part of the solution.  People also need to realize access to mental health help and recognizing when it's a problem in a person is also a large part of the problem.

 

This is an NRA talking point that rational people should not uncritically repeat.

 

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Mental Illness, Mass Shootings, and the Politics of American Firearms

In the United States, popular and political discourse frequently focuses on the causal impact of mental illness in the aftermath of mass shootings. For instance, the US media diagnosed shooter Adam Lanza with schizophrenia in the days following the tragic school shooting at Sandy Hook elementary school in Newtown, Connecticut, in December 2012. “Was Adam Lanza an undiagnosed schizophrenic?” asked Psychology Today.1 “Lanza’s acts of slaughter . . . strongly suggest undiagnosed schizophrenia” added the New York Times.2 Conservative commentator Anne Coulter provocatively proclaimed that “Guns don’t kill people—the mentally ill do.”3

Similar themes permeated political responses to Newtown as well. In a contentious press conference, National Rifle Association President Wayne LaPierre blamed “delusional killers” for violence in the United States, while calling for a “national registry” of persons with mental illness.4 Meanwhile, in the months after the shooting, a number of states passed bills that required mental health professionals to report “dangerous patients” to local officials, who would then be authorized to confiscate any firearms that these persons might own. “People who have mental health issues should not have guns,” New York Governor Andrew Cuomo told reporters after one such bill passed the New York Senate. “They could hurt themselves, they could hurt other people.”5

 

From this review we critically addressed 4 central assumptions that frequently arise in the aftermath of mass shootings:

• (1) Mental illness causes gun violence,
• (2) Psychiatric diagnosis can predict gun crime before it happens,
• (3) US mass shootings teach us to fear mentally ill loners, and
• (4) Because of the complex psychiatric histories of mass shooters, gun control “won’t prevent” another Tucson, Aurora, or Newtown.

Each of these statements is certainly true in particular instances. Evidence strongly suggests that mass shooters are often mentally ill and socially marginalized. Enhanced psychiatric attention may well prevent particular crimes. And, to be sure, mass shootings often shed light on the need for more investment in mental health support networks or improved state laws and procedures regarding gun access.18

 

At the same time, the literatures we surveyed suggest that these seemingly self-evident assumptions about mass shootings are replete with problematic assumptions, particularly when read against current and historical literatures that address guns, violence, and mental illness more broadly. On the aggregate level, the notion that mental illness causes gun violence stereotypes a vast and diverse population of persons diagnosed with psychiatric conditions and oversimplifies links between violence and mental illness. Notions of mental illness that emerge in relation to mass shootings frequently reflect larger cultural issues that become obscured when mass shootings come to stand in for all gun crime and when “mentally ill” ceases to be a medical designation and becomes a sign of violent threat.

 

---

 

 

Blaming gun violence on anything but guns is an attempt to dodge the core issue - America has too many guns, and they result in too many gun deaths.

 

 

[BigRedBuster]

Just now, knapplc said:

 

This is an NRA talking point that rational people should not uncritically repeat.

 

 

---

 

Mental Illness, Mass Shootings, and the Politics of American Firearms

In the United States, popular and political discourse frequently focuses on the causal impact of mental illness in the aftermath of mass shootings. For instance, the US media diagnosed shooter Adam Lanza with schizophrenia in the days following the tragic school shooting at Sandy Hook elementary school in Newtown, Connecticut, in December 2012. “Was Adam Lanza an undiagnosed schizophrenic?” asked Psychology Today.1 “Lanza’s acts of slaughter . . . strongly suggest undiagnosed schizophrenia” added the New York Times.2 Conservative commentator Anne Coulter provocatively proclaimed that “Guns don’t kill people—the mentally ill do.”3

Similar themes permeated political responses to Newtown as well. In a contentious press conference, National Rifle Association President Wayne LaPierre blamed “delusional killers” for violence in the United States, while calling for a “national registry” of persons with mental illness.4 Meanwhile, in the months after the shooting, a number of states passed bills that required mental health professionals to report “dangerous patients” to local officials, who would then be authorized to confiscate any firearms that these persons might own. “People who have mental health issues should not have guns,” New York Governor Andrew Cuomo told reporters after one such bill passed the New York Senate. “They could hurt themselves, they could hurt other people.”5

 

From this review we critically addressed 4 central assumptions that frequently arise in the aftermath of mass shootings:

• (1) Mental illness causes gun violence,
• (2) Psychiatric diagnosis can predict gun crime before it happens,
• (3) US mass shootings teach us to fear mentally ill loners, and
• (4) Because of the complex psychiatric histories of mass shooters, gun control “won’t prevent” another Tucson, Aurora, or Newtown.

Each of these statements is certainly true in particular instances. Evidence strongly suggests that mass shooters are often mentally ill and socially marginalized. Enhanced psychiatric attention may well prevent particular crimes. And, to be sure, mass shootings often shed light on the need for more investment in mental health support networks or improved state laws and procedures regarding gun access.18

 

At the same time, the literatures we surveyed suggest that these seemingly self-evident assumptions about mass shootings are replete with problematic assumptions, particularly when read against current and historical literatures that address guns, violence, and mental illness more broadly. On the aggregate level, the notion that mental illness causes gun violence stereotypes a vast and diverse population of persons diagnosed with psychiatric conditions and oversimplifies links between violence and mental illness. Notions of mental illness that emerge in relation to mass shootings frequently reflect larger cultural issues that become obscured when mass shootings come to stand in for all gun crime and when “mentally ill” ceases to be a medical designation and becomes a sign of violent threat.

 

 

---

 

 

Blaming gun violence on anything but guns is an attempt to dodge the core issue - America has too many guns, and they result in too many gun deaths.

 

 

No it's not.  I included guns are part of the problem and that is complete OPPOSITE of the NRA talking point.

[DevoHusker]

15 minutes ago, sho said:

I know and understand your point with handguns.   The VT one, for me is an outlier, and he was a true POS, chaining doors and preventing people to escape.   But looking at mass deaths since columbine, outside of VT, the weapon of choice was the AR.   I know banning that, and similar weapons, won't prevent it, but I feel it will greatly reduce the curve on mass shootings.   Right now, I want to stop the next Route 66, Parkland, Columbine, Sandy Hook, Pulse etc  after that we can start focusing on the next pressure point and fire arms.

 

I am also realistic and know, handguns need to be off the table if we look at having any meaningful discussion about gun reform.   Can't take the whole pie in one sitting, it won't work and it's not realistic.

 Good take.

[knapplc]

4 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

No it's not.  I included guns are part of the problem and that is complete OPPOSITE of the NRA talking point.

 

It's literally a quote from NRA President Wayne LaPierre. Did you even glance at the article?

[sho]

4 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

It's literally a quote from NRA President Wayne LaPierre. Did you even glance at the article?

 

NRA is blaming it all on mental illness, you are saying it's guns.  The answer is both, even with no guns, we will still have mass attacks (there was that knife attack in England? Japan?    There's the driving into a crowd with a truck).   We need to eliminate the stigma associated w/mental health and need affordable and better access to therapy, starting at a younger age.   We also need to eliminate weapons of mass destruction in the hands of civilians.   And that's what an AK and similar weapons are, mass destruction weapons.

[BigRedBuster]

8 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

It's literally a quote from NRA President Wayne LaPierre. Did you even glance at the article?

So, LaPierre says that guns are a major part of the problem and comprehensive gun regulations need to be part of the solution?

[knapplc]

Just now, BigRedBuster said:

So, LaPierre says that guns are a major part of the problem and comprehensive gun regulations need to be part of the solution?

 

You're being intentionally dense for some reason.

 

1 minute ago, sho said:

 

NRA is blaming it all on mental illness, you are saying it's guns.  The answer is both, even with no guns, we will still have mass attacks (there was that knife attack in England? Japan?    There's the driving into a crowd with a truck).   We need to eliminate the stigma associated w/mental health and need affordable and better access to therapy, starting at a younger age.   We also need to eliminate weapons of mass destruction in the hands of civilians.   And that's what an AK and similar weapons are, mass destruction weapons.

 

I'm saying you need to show your work. If it's ALSO mental illness, you need to show why this doesn't happen in other countries. Or you need to show that America has greater incidence of mental illness.

 

If it was a mental health issue it would happen everywhere. It's only happening here, so what's the difference? The difference is the guns.

 

There's as much evidence that motor vehicles cause these mass slayings as mental health. Or eating breakfast, or watching TV. Every one of those shooters did every one of those things leading up to the shootings.

 

Correlation does not equal causation. And we have direct quotes from the NRA in response to yet another mass shooting