Biden Foreign Policy

[Archy1221]

46 minutes ago, Lorewarn said:

 

 

In terms of "the majority of Palestinians support Hamas", I'm not sure what that does mean or is supposed to mean but it's not a strong statement.

 

Support is a vague and nebulous term. Massive amounts of Americans support Israel, yet I'm sure they don't support apartheid or bombing civilians. I support Nebraska football but I don't support Arik Gilbert breaking into vape stores or many of the ethically grey things Osborne did in the 90's. I support the troops but I don't support drone strikes on American citizens.

 

So I guess I'm left with a question of, 'Ok, what does that even mean?' While others seem to have their mind made up with a simple framework of good guys and bad guys, that seems to be the same kind of thinking that leads to decades worth of retributive violence that gets us nowhere.

 

Between the options of 'most palestinians support everything that Hamas does and cheer on murder and rape' vs 'most palestinians live in a context with zero good options and are forced to compromise at every turn for the sake of survival and want to be free of the occupying boot on their necks' one seems like a talking point and one seems like an invitation to learn and understand more.

They certainly aren’t chanting we want water for Gaza so we support Hamas !  Instead they chose “intifada” 

 

 

[Lorewarn]

6 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

They certainly aren’t chanting we want water for Gaza so we support Hamas !  Instead they chose “intifada” 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Intifada means "shaking off" in terms of a civil uprising. What's the accusation here, that anyone calling for Palestine to be liberated from an illegal occupation is tantamount to agreeing with rape and killing babies?

[Decked]

Ground war about to begin. Iranian backed militias moving into Syria. Lebanon military exchanging fire with the IDF. Lot of fronts to open up in this war. 

[Archy1221]

4 minutes ago, Lorewarn said:

 

Intifada means "shaking off" in terms of a civil uprising. What's the accusation here, that anyone calling for Palestine to be liberated from an illegal occupation is tantamount to agreeing with rape and killing babies?

Can you tell me what “illegal occupation” exactly means in how you reference it.  It’s very vague and nebulous.  

[Archy1221]

11 minutes ago, Lorewarn said:

Intifada means "shaking off" in terms of a civil uprising. What's the accusation here,

“Uprising” not necessarily “civil uprising”.  And It’s a strange thing to call for immediately after Hamas attacked civilians in Israel.   Take the accusation for what you want.   

[teachercd]

This board about to get a name change from Huskerboard to Hamasboard

 

[Lorewarn]

 

28 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

Can you tell me what “illegal occupation” exactly means in how you reference it.  It’s very vague and nebulous.  

 

Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention says “The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.” It also has language about individual or mass forcible transfers as well as deportations, all of which has been happening in Israel-occupied Palestinian land for decades. Israel is occupying land that isn't legally theirs, displacing people that lived on that land, and controlling all of the movement, the water, the energy and the food coming in and out.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law_and_Israeli_settlements#:~:text=of ratifying it.-,International legal opinions,a violation of international law.

 

Quote

 

The international community considers the establishment of Israeli settlements in the Israeli-occupied territories illegal on one of two bases: that they are in violation of Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, or that they are in breach of international declarations.[a][c][d][e] The United Nations Security Council, the United Nations General Assembly, the International Committee of the Red Cross, the International Court of Justice and the High Contracting Parties to the Convention have all affirmed that the Fourth Geneva Convention applies to the Israeli-occupied territories.[f][g]

Numerous UN resolutions and prevailing international opinion hold that Israeli settlements in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights are a violation of international law, including UN Security Council resolutions in 1979, 1980,[1][2][3] and 2016.[4][5] UN Security Council Resolution 446 refers to the Fourth Geneva Convention as the applicable international legal instrument, and calls upon Israel to desist from transferring its own population into the territories or changing their demographic makeup. 126 Representatives at the reconvened Conference of the High Contracting Parties to the Geneva Conventions in 2014 declared the settlements illegal[6] as has the primary judicial organ of the UN, the International Court of Justice[7] and the International Committee of the Red Cross. United Nations Security Council Resolution 2334, which passed 14-0 with the United States abstaining, declared that Israel's settlement activity in the occupied Palestinian territories, including East Jerusalem, "has no legal validity and constitutes a flagrant violation under international law", and demanded that Israel "immediately and completely cease all settlement activities".[8]

 

 

 

 

 

22 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

“Uprising” not necessarily “civil uprising”.  And It’s a strange thing to call for immediately after Hamas attacked civilians in Israel.   Take the accusation for what you want.   

 

But not a strange thing to call for if you're Palestinian after Israel responds tenfold and is bombing the s#!t out of anyone, not just the terrorists.

 

 

 

 

A little bit of history to help contextualize how we got here for anyone interested:

 

 

Hamas didn't exist during the first Palestinian antifada. It was a series of boycotts of products/services, refusing to pay taxes, strikes, and also some varying degrees of civil unrest and violence. Israel did what Israel does which is respond with a massive f#&%ing hammer sending 80,000 troops in and f#&%ing s#!t up (death counts were 100 to 1 against Palestinians).

 

That's when/where Hamas was founded. Now, while some folks did and do support Hamas because of its military tactics (ie, terrorism), most in the region support(ed) them because of their social welfare projects. They built and staffed schools, mosques, clinics, etc. Not all that dissimilar to something like the Black Panthers in our own history.

 

While secular groups were having absolutely zero success being seen as legitimate or getting any results in trying to negotiate with Israel, repeatedly failing for decades to make any progress on behalf of occupied Palestinians, many of them ended up turning towards Hamas as the only group who they saw as willing or even just able to do anything at all, which of course has led to (depending on the perspective either intentional or unintentional) consequences of these horrific attacks. A lot of desperate folks in a desperate place desperately turning to the only people they thought could do something rather than nothing at all.

 

It's been more or less clockwork ever since, with Hamas launching rockets and killing civilians and then Israel retaliating tenfold also killing civilians, prompting more outrage and more rockets from Hamas, and on and on and on it goes. Both sides are good at pointing fingers but it's ultimately a consistent failure for either side to understand any legitimacy of the other side's narrative. 

[TGHusker]

Pot meet Kettle

 

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/putin-cautions-israel-that-ground-attack-on-gaza-would-be-unacceptable/ar-AA1ia9wP?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=22f77c3100034cc2bf0c9ddc7ef6f581&ei=9

 

Quote

 

Russian President Vladimir Putin called on Friday for an end to the bloodshed in the Middle East and cautioned Israel that a ground offensive in Gaza would lead to an "absolutely unacceptable" number of civilian casualties.

Israel's military on Friday called for all civilians of Gaza City, more than 1 million people, to relocate south within 24 hours, as it amassed tanks for an expected ground invasion in response to a devastating attack by the militant group Hamas.

Putin said Israel had been subjected to "an attack unprecedented in its cruelty" and had the right to protection, but that the bloodshed should cease, cautioning that a ground attack would lead to "serious consequences for all sides".

"And most importantly, the civilian casualties will be absolutely unacceptable. Now the main thing is to stop the bloodshed," Putin said at a summit in Kyrgyzstan with other former republics of the Soviet Union.

 

 

[RedDenver]

2 hours ago, Dr. Strangelove said:

Is it inaccurate? 

Yes

[teachercd]

25 minutes ago, TGHusker said:

Pot meet Kettle

 

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/putin-cautions-israel-that-ground-attack-on-gaza-would-be-unacceptable/ar-AA1ia9wP?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=22f77c3100034cc2bf0c9ddc7ef6f581&ei=9

 

 

Haha!  I mean, that guy has some brass balls!

 

 

[BigRedBuster]

2 hours ago, Archy1221 said:

You may check on that.   I’m pretty sure I didn’t even respond to the post you are referencing so how could I imply your plan wouldn’t work

 

 

I stand corrected.  Right after my post, you responded to @Lorewarn that was saying something similar that we need to think of the civilian Palestinians differently than Hamas. You then responded that 50-60% of Palestinians support Hamas.  Which, I take as you saying, you can't separate them.  For Which, I asked, then what is your answer if it's not trying to be friendly to the civilians and getting them on our side and against Hamas?  And, you didn't answer.

 

I'm still interested in your response.

[BigRedBuster]

2 hours ago, Archy1221 said:

Are you sure they have settlements in Gaza Strip (which is what we are talking about) 

You are correct, they abandoned their settlements in Gaza around 2005.  However, they continue to have and build settlements in the West Bank, which is also Palestinian territory.  

 

As for Gaza specifically, Israel still has a very negative affect on life there.

 

Quote

 

Despite pleas from the United Nations and human rights groups, Israel has maintained a land, air and sea blockade on Gaza since 2007 that has had a devastating effect on Palestinian civilians. Israel says the blockade, which gives it control of Gaza's borders and is also enforced by Egypt, is necessary to protect Israeli citizens from Hamas.

 

The International Committee of the Red Cross considers the blockade illegal and says it violates the Geneva Convention, a charge Israeli officials deny. The U.N., various human rights groups and legal scholars, citing the blockade, consider Gaza to still be under military occupation by Israel. 

 

 

So....I don't see how someone could say "Israel has been out of Gaza since 2005".

[Lorewarn]

 

[Archy1221]

1 hour ago, BigRedBuster said:

As for Gaza specifically, Israel still has a very negative affect on life there.

And that could be cured based on accepting the conditions of removing the blockade.  Renounce Hamas and terror towards Israel, recognize Israel, accept Oslo Accords and then the international approved blockade goes away 

[teachercd]

58 minutes ago, Lorewarn said:

 

And it will never change.