God Hates Gays

[bennychico11]

I'm about as far from Catholic as it gets - I don't like throwing labels on myself other than a follower of Christ, but my theology is pretty reformed. But Catholic or not, Paul's letters are divinely inspired as God's word, and we should treat them as such, while being careful to take into account a lot of things such as context, meaning to original readers, application to present day, and etc.

 

That said I'm not exactly sure if you're trying to make a point, and if so what it is.

 

Nah, not trying to make any point. Just had the same question that Lil Red had earlier about making someone the ultimate person in your life.

[sd'sker]

Well I've got a few things to........oh nevermind.

 

Actually, I do have one thing to say about the title. IMO anything that follows "God hates......" cannot be attributed to God but rather to some misguided human who thinks they understand the mind of God but they really have no clue. I dunno, I was always taught that God doesn't hate anybody and that even the most vile among us almost always has the opportunity to receive forgiveness. But that's me, opinions may differ.

 

This.

but then what right do people have to say what god loves?

 

Romans 8:37-39

 

But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

John 13:34-35

 

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

 

John 3:16

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

 

1 John 4:9-12

By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has beheld God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.

but what right do people have to say what god loves?

[NUance]

The real test is, if there is another God and they are both males--would God love him?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

/ I keeeed, I keeeeed. There is only one God. We all know that. And he loves everyone. Including gays.

[Junior]

I've never understood why so much attention is paid to who other people have sex with and/or want to marry.

 

And I definitely have never understood how serial marriers like Newt Gingrich have any sort of moral high ground to claim on the topic of "defense of marriage".

[Lil' Red]

That is valid - the harm in homosexuality isn't readily apparent in the same way, for sure. The harm in it is that we were designed with a certain image in mind, and it's a deviation from that image. While homosexuals might live great lives, love their partners, contribute to society and what have you, my basis of understanding what is good, beneficial, life-bringing and beneficial comes from the Bible before it ever comes from my own eyeball test or taking people's word for it. God designed marriage in a specific way between man and woman, and that is the right way for no other reason than it is the way God intended - one might think that it's not fair and they want to be free from that design, but you are straying away from what you were made to be, and thus, what will bring you joy and life and peace and rest and etc.

So you don't have any insight as why God would intend to make it only that way? I get the impression that a same-sex relationship will bring more joy to homosexuals then the alternative.

 

That is absolutely my belief.

Personally I do not believe that I'm capable of a same-sex relationship. I have no attraction to guys and feel that I would be unable to sustain any sort of romantic relationship with one. I believe most homosexuals would share a similar view of relationships with the opposite sex.

 

 

It is making that person ultimate in your life, it's no different whether that person is the other sex or not.

Loving your partner deeply and passionately and wanting to spend the rest of your life with them seemed to closely fit my interpretation of marriage. Can you clarify the difference between marriage and making someone ultimate in your life?

[Landlord]

So you don't have any insight as why God would intend to make it only that way? I get the impression that a same-sex relationship will bring more joy to homosexuals then the alternative.

 

I guess I can't offer much of substance here - some theologians might be able to, but I don't know that there's really a proper answer (to human intellect) for "why" God does things the way He does, other than for His glory.

 

 

Personally I do not believe that I'm capable of a same-sex relationship. I have no attraction to guys and feel that I would be unable to sustain any sort of romantic relationship with one. I believe most homosexuals would share a similar view of relationships with the opposite sex.

 

Sorry, I should have been more clear here - when I say I believe that anyone is capable of it, I don't mean in the sense that right now at whatever age you're at and after having lived through your life that you could easily fall into the desire to have a homosexual relationship or sexual relations with someone. Moreso I meant that it can hypothetically happen to anyone given the right genetic disposition and cultural experiences.

 

 

It is making that person ultimate in your life, it's no different whether that person is the other sex or not.

Loving your partner deeply and passionately and wanting to spend the rest of your life with them seemed to closely fit my interpretation of marriage. Can you clarify the difference between marriage and making someone ultimate in your life?

 

 

Ah, another case of me not speaking clearly enough. Certainly what you proposed in the quote is a proper interpretation of what marriage should look like! The caveat here is, however, not the loving your partner deeply and passionately part, but the "under God" part. While it is true that marriage was designed and created by God to be a covenant between a man and a woman joining together to become one flesh, it is still a secondary relationship to that of their relationships with their Father. In a perfect world without the effects of sin there would be no need to make a distinction here, but with the world we do live in, the line between healthy marriage and idolatry of making your spouse ultimate is when there is a disconnect between serving God and serving your spouse. For example, let's say your wife wants to be left alone when she's going through a rough time. That's fine in certain situations, but if she's engaging in sin, as her husband and as a Christian it is your responsibility to lovingly confront her and if you aren't doing that, you are, in that moment, placing your wife as a higher priority in your life than God.

 

I was having a hard time coming up with a practical example, but hopefully that makes sense. It's easy to see the things we worship if we aren't deceiving ourselves - they're simply the things we make the most sacrifices for. If anything requires more sacrifice in your life than Jesus, be it Husker football, financial success, your spouse, your kids, or anyone or anything, then you are trying to satisfy yourself with temporary vices when you're in need of someone eternal and life-giving.

[BIGREDIOWAN]

Being gay isn't a choice IMO, those folks are gay and that's who they are. It doesn't bother me one bit and will never bother me. I love my wife and their relationships don't affect me one bit.

[The Dude]

That is valid - the harm in homosexuality isn't readily apparent in the same way, for sure. The harm in it is that we were designed with a certain image in mind, and it's a deviation from that image. While homosexuals might live great lives, love their partners, contribute to society and what have you, my basis of understanding what is good, beneficial, life-bringing and beneficial comes from the Bible before it ever comes from my own eyeball test or taking people's word for it. God designed marriage in a specific way between man and woman, and that is the right way for no other reason than it is the way God intended - one might think that it's not fair and they want to be free from that design, but you are straying away from what you were made to be, and thus, what will bring you joy and life and peace and rest and etc.

In order to accept the rest of what you said, I have to accept the bold part. Which, given what we know about how we actually came to be, just seems really silly.

[BIGREDIOWAN]

That is valid - the harm in homosexuality isn't readily apparent in the same way, for sure. The harm in it is that we were designed with a certain image in mind, and it's a deviation from that image. While homosexuals might live great lives, love their partners, contribute to society and what have you, my basis of understanding what is good, beneficial, life-bringing and beneficial comes from the Bible before it ever comes from my own eyeball test or taking people's word for it. God designed marriage in a specific way between man and woman, and that is the right way for no other reason than it is the way God intended - one might think that it's not fair and they want to be free from that design, but you are straying away from what you were made to be, and thus, what will bring you joy and life and peace and rest and etc.

In order to accept the rest of what you said, I have to accept the bold part. Which, given what we know about how we actually came to be, just seems really silly.

Exactly the reason I won't go to church.................no offense to Landlord, but if god is a vengeful, hateful, and punishing god I don't want anything to do with it. My god is a loving individual that will love me and other people for who they are. Do we sin.............yes, we do, but only god can judge me when the time comes and no one else's opinion matters. People that live their lives strictly by the bible aren't being realistic and I guarantee you they've strayed against the bible in one way or another.

[Landlord]

In order to accept the rest of what you said, I have to accept the bold part. Which, given what we know about how we actually came to be, just seems really silly.

 

What does "how" something happened do to answer the question of "why" it happened?

 

 

Exactly the reason I won't go to church.................no offense to Landlord, but if god is a vengeful, hateful, and punishing god I don't want anything to do with it.

 

Here's the thing - if God does exist, which of these statements is true?

 

A. God is subject to and under the rule of rational thought.

B. Rationalism is subject to and under the rule of God.

 

What you're doing in making statements like this is presupposing that your or our incredibly limited, incredibly imperfect and incredibly inconsistent view of what is right and wrong is the barometer by which we're to judge the Creator's merits. Why does God have to answer to you for the supposed atrocities He has committed or the supposed vengeful nature of His character according to YOUR standard? Imagine if children got to build their parents with qualities they decided were ideal in a parent, what a mess that would be!

 

 

 

My god is a loving individual that will love me and other people for who they are. Do we sin.............yes, we do, but only god can judge me when the time comes and no one else's opinion matters. People that live their lives strictly by the bible aren't being realistic and I guarantee you they've strayed against the bible in one way or another.

 

It's funny, in the same argument that you call people living by the Bible unrealistic, you lay out Biblical truths about God and people

 

Yes we do sin (Romans 3:23),

yes only God can judge us (John 8:7, Luke 6:37),

yes other people's opinions, although I wouldn't use that word, don't matter (1 Corinthians 4:3-5)

and yes, even Christians have strayed against the Bible (Matthew 18:15, 1 John 1:7-9, Colossians 3:5-6)

 

But sure, living by the Bible isn't realistic. So the logical question I have is which God is your God, BRI? It sounds as if you've made Him up to fit your criteria for how He should be. Now tell me what's more unrealistic:

 

A. Deciding for myself what my God is like, without any other corroborating reports.

B. Taking seriously and into account 2,000 years of church history, and 4,000 more before that, of reports, testimonies, historical accounts and changed lives all centered around the God outlined in Scripture.

[bennychico11]

What you're doing in making statements like this is presupposing that your or our incredibly limited, incredibly imperfect and incredibly inconsistent view of what is right and wrong is the barometer by which we're to judge the Creator's merits. Why does God have to answer to you for the supposed atrocities He has committed or the supposed vengeful nature of His character according to YOUR standard? Imagine if children got to build their parents with qualities they decided were ideal in a parent, what a mess that would be!

 

I had a long reply typed up but realized most of it was pointless. This was what I had problem with the most.

Our view of what is moral may be limited, inconsistent and imperfect. But what we hold over your god is that we are able to change and evolve. We learn from our failures. We improve and become more moral over the years. Your creator apparently does not. Is what is moral only moral because your god says so...or because it is moral in the first place? Could your god say rape or murder is okay tomorrow? Would you abide by that?

Your god has to answer for his atrocities because if he wants my love and respect (something he instilled in me as a human condition that I value)...then he should respect that same value in me. And if you're saying my morality is only MY own STANDARD...something that he does not care for? Then I care not to worship him.

 

You go to the parent analogy. So I ask if a parent rapes his child. Beats and tortures this child...and then tells that same child it's his own fault because he was born for that. And he shouldn't question his parent...instead love and accept that parent. Is that moral and just?

I think if you asked a child after he's had time to learn and adjust to the world around him...after he has grown up to decide on what is moral and what isn't. And based on those perceived moralities how one would pick a parent? You would get answers that are surprisingly NOT a mess. That child would tell you exactly what they would need when growing up.

And to PROVE this...just look at how those children eventually raise their OWN children. Children grow up. They then have children on their own. And the experiences they had throughout their own childhood and the rest of their lives shape the way they raise their own children. Personal experience will always win out over divine command.

[MLB 51]

I don't see the problem here. God hates " Gays" If you don't believe in God, what difference does it make. Like I said, GOD HATES US ALL. Live with it.

[Landlord]

What you're doing in making statements like this is presupposing that your or our incredibly limited, incredibly imperfect and incredibly inconsistent view of what is right and wrong is the barometer by which we're to judge the Creator's merits. Why does God have to answer to you for the supposed atrocities He has committed or the supposed vengeful nature of His character according to YOUR standard? Imagine if children got to build their parents with qualities they decided were ideal in a parent, what a mess that would be!

 

I had a long reply typed up but realized most of it was pointless. This was what I had problem with the most.

Our view of what is moral may be limited, inconsistent and imperfect. But what we hold over your god is that we are able to change and evolve. We learn from our failures. We improve and become more moral over the years. Your creator apparently does not. Is what is moral only moral because your god says so...or because it is moral in the first place? Could your god say rape or murder is okay tomorrow? Would you abide by that?

Your god has to answer for his atrocities because if he wants my love and respect (something he instilled in me as a human condition that I value)...then he should respect that same value in me. And if you're saying my morality is only MY own STANDARD...something that he does not care for? Then I care not to worship him.

 

You go to the parent analogy. So I ask if a parent rapes his child. Beats and tortures this child...and then tells that same child it's his own fault because he was born for that. And he shouldn't question his parent...instead love and accept that parent. Is that moral and just?

I think if you asked a child after he's had time to learn and adjust to the world around him...after he has grown up to decide on what is moral and what isn't. And based on those perceived moralities how one would pick a parent? You would get answers that are surprisingly NOT a mess. That child would tell you exactly what they would need when growing up.

And to PROVE this...just look at how those children eventually raise their OWN children. Children grow up. They then have children on their own. And the experiences they had throughout their own childhood and the rest of their lives shape the way they raise their own children. Personal experience will always win out over divine command.

 

 

Your analogy doesn't match up very well, but the answer to whether or not that would be just is no, it would not be. However, God is not beating or raping His children, nor is there anything analogous to it. A more accurate representation would be a child that keeps getting into serious trouble, putting themselves into extremely dangerous situations and harming themselves despite their parent pleading and calling for them to stay close and trust that they know what's best for the child, but the child refuses. Even then, while the reality is that the fault does rest with the child, the parent, or God, doesn't hold that over them; He welcomes them to be embraced and protected and cared for, so long as the child is obedient, not by an arbitrary and tyrannical rule or law that the parent sets in place, but just by the nature of what is good for the child.

 

 

I don't get your first paragraph. God is, by very nature, the definition of justice, mercy and morality; He doesn't choose to line up with them, He is them and provides them, so why would that ever change?

 

Is what is moral only moral because your god says so...or because it is moral in the first place?

 

The answer is both. God is the same yesterday today and for ever, and morality is His creation spoke into being - the point being that God does not speak things contrary to His nature. That's great that we are able to evolve and adapt and refine and improve, but if that is true (which, looking at the state of the world, doesn't seem to be the case by my limited perception), all we are doing is simply aligning ourselves closer with what true morality is. We aren't changing morality, we're getting closer to it, and guess where that leads us? Straight towards the Creator of it

 

Your analogy actually proves this point. Children with good, respectful and loving parents tend to grow up, learn from their mistakes, improve in their character, and they eventually end up looking more and more like their parents, since their parents were the source of those values. Similarly, if you have extremely poor parents, their children tend to follow them into the pattern of poor parenting. It is well and good for the child to change and adapt, but why should the parent? That would cause a load of problems for the child.

[HuskerShark]

I don't see the problem here. God hates " Gays" If you don't believe in God, what difference does it make. Like I said, GOD HATES US ALL. Live with it.

 

What the.....

 

no........

[BIGREDIOWAN]

In order to accept the rest of what you said, I have to accept the bold part. Which, given what we know about how we actually came to be, just seems really silly.

 

What does "how" something happened do to answer the question of "why" it happened?

 

 

Exactly the reason I won't go to church.................no offense to Landlord, but if god is a vengeful, hateful, and punishing god I don't want anything to do with it.

 

Here's the thing - if God does exist, which of these statements is true?

 

A. God is subject to and under the rule of rational thought.

B. Rationalism is subject to and under the rule of God.

 

What you're doing in making statements like this is presupposing that your or our incredibly limited, incredibly imperfect and incredibly inconsistent view of what is right and wrong is the barometer by which we're to judge the Creator's merits. Why does God have to answer to you for the supposed atrocities He has committed or the supposed vengeful nature of His character according to YOUR standard? Imagine if children got to build their parents with qualities they decided were ideal in a parent, what a mess that would be!

 

 

 

My god is a loving individual that will love me and other people for who they are. Do we sin.............yes, we do, but only god can judge me when the time comes and no one else's opinion matters. People that live their lives strictly by the bible aren't being realistic and I guarantee you they've strayed against the bible in one way or another.

 

It's funny, in the same argument that you call people living by the Bible unrealistic, you lay out Biblical truths about God and people

 

Yes we do sin (Romans 3:23),

yes only God can judge us (John 8:7, Luke 6:37),

yes other people's opinions, although I wouldn't use that word, don't matter (1 Corinthians 4:3-5)

and yes, even Christians have strayed against the Bible (Matthew 18:15, 1 John 1:7-9, Colossians 3:5-6)

 

But sure, living by the Bible isn't realistic. So the logical question I have is which God is your God, BRI? It sounds as if you've made Him up to fit your criteria for how He should be. Now tell me what's more unrealistic:

 

A. Deciding for myself what my God is like, without any other corroborating reports.

B. Taking seriously and into account 2,000 years of church history, and 4,000 more before that, of reports, testimonies, historical accounts and changed lives all centered around the God outlined in Scripture.

My experience in the church is limited................I'm a spiritual man, not a religious man, I've never read the bible from cover to cover and probably won't for quite some time, but you never know. There is one individual I work with and his particuliar religion makes me feel like he fears god and has to do things a certain way, like donating a certain portion of his salary to the church, and if he doesn't do these things he won't be allowed admittance into heaven when he leaves this earth. I don't want to be scared to die, whether someone else believes in god or not I don't care..............I believe he/she/it exists and that's my personal feeling on the matter. When my time comes I want to find peace in knowing that I will be judged by my god and forgiving for the sins I've commited. I try to live a good life, but like anyone else I sin on some level. I just don't think it's necessary to give up part of my salary to the church as a way to buy my way into heaven. I don't buy that crap and never will, I think it's a way for the church to get money and understand it talks about it in the bible..........don't think it's necessary. I also refuse to be scared of god because of whatever reason. I deal with death every single day...............when I put my uniform on I look in the mirror, prepare myself for battle, and prepare myself to meet my creator and the chance that I may never see my family on this earth again. Not saying I deserve a pat on the back for that, I'm just telling you that I prepare for that daily so I obviously believe in my devine creator.