Parkland, FL High School Shooting

[teachercd]

Your #4 is a great idea and one that I have always thought of myself.  

[Enhance]

@sho you're spot on with some things there.

 

- As important as it is to protect schools, this country needs a comprehensive approach to defending the public from mass shootings and gun violence in general. I hope that doesn't get lost in all of this. School shootings are horrendous but things like what happened in Las Vegas can't and shouldn't happen either.

 

- Most teachers will tell you they don't want a gun because of that very reason. They're educators and have no interest.

 

- It can't be funded. My rough estimate shows three armed guards would cost the state/feds $10.8 billion in annual salaries alone, not including their weapons. Good luck getting that on a bond issue.

[commando]

13 minutes ago, sho said:

 

 

My thoughts for a solution:

 

1--Ban semi-automatic rifles.  There's no need for anyone in society to have one.   Manufactures stop making them.  Figure out some sort of buy back program and get registered weapons off the street. 

i think banning the large capacity clips would probably be a more palatable solution.    landowners have the right to hunt on their own land so limiting semi auto hunting rifles to game preserves wont work

Quote

 

2--Secure all schools (because I'm not naive enough to believe that banning them gets them off the street) with bullet proof glass at all entrances and during the school day all entrances are locked.  The only way into the school from the public would then be by the office to be checked in.  Yes, that still leaves kids vulnerable at recess and PE, but will keep more kids safe in general.

lockdowns are already done at many schools...although the bulletproof glass may be something that needs to be done at most

3--Mandatory 1 week waiting period on the purchase of any other type of gun with a much more stringent back ground check.  Heavy fines for those areas that fail to report correctly (cough military for not reporting the domestic abuse with the TX shooter  cough).  Gun shows immediate purchases are no longer allowed.  Private sales can still be done.  Buyer must have a license (which would require the background check) seller would need to confirm buyer had one and both buyer and seller need to transfer ownership of that gun through the city/county.  Failure of seller to confirm buyer has a license results in major fine.

this is very doable and won't infringe on anyones rights to own a gun.   a waiting period to get all background checks done is more than sensible

4--Much like cigarettes, create a heavy tax on the sale of bullets.   If you want to shoot them, it's going to cost a lot more and that tax goes to help fund better mental health facilities in the state of sale and hospitals that help victims of gun violence to help off-set that cost.   

as a hunter i would like to buy 1 box of ammo without a huge tax on it....but not a bad idea

 

I'm not saying this will end mass shootings, but I think if we can go this route, the amount of mass shootings and gun violence in general, will decrease greatly.   Then we can start focusing on some of the other issues that led to the mass shooting, mainly better mental health care.

 

 

And for those who can't live without their semi-automatic rifles, I think I could compromise and allow them in 2 places.  Gun ranges and hunting reserves.   Those two businesses would then be monitored for the security of the weapons.

 

Edited February 22, 2018 by commando

[sho]

4 minutes ago, commando said:

i think banning the large capacity clips would probably be a more palatable solution.    landowners have the right to hunt on their own land so limiting semi auto hunting rifles to game preserves wont work

 

I'm not a hunter @commando so you can help me understand this.  I fully understand wanting to hunt your own ground.   What is the benefit of hunting with a semi-automatic on your own ground versus a single shot?  What are you hunting on your own ground that the semi would be the gun of choice?  I know my dad went deer hunting and he used single shot.  Went pheasant hunting and used a shotgun.  He always came back with a kill, so I guess that's where I'm confused on why the semi would be the gun of choice for that.

[BigRedBuster]

23 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

I come from a family of teachers and have lifelong teacher friends. There are many, many hardworking teachers who get frustrated by both the Teachers Union and overpaid School Administrators, and fly-by-night experiments with the curriculum. I don't like the attempt by the Right to demonize teachers who are often dealing with the same issues as every business with a hierarchy. bureaucracy and misallocated budgets. Of all the things we don't need right now it's treating school teachers as the enemy. 

Well...they are til they get shot. Then they are heros.....thoughts and prayers. 

[teachercd]

9 minutes ago, Enhance said:

@sho you're spot on with some things there.

 

- As important as it is to protect schools, this country needs a comprehensive approach to defending the public from mass shootings and gun violence in general. I hope that doesn't get lost in all of this. School shootings are horrendous but things like what happened in Las Vegas can't and shouldn't happen either.

 

- Most teachers will tell you they don't want a gun because of that very reason. They're educators and have no interest.

 

- It can't be funded. My rough estimate shows three armed guards would cost the state/feds $10.8 billion in annual salaries alone, not including their weapons. Good luck getting that on a bond issue.

I don't want a gun.  I did have a broken shaft of a golf club by my desk for years.  I had taped up one end of it as a handle and the other end was pretty sharp.  I also had a golf club next to my desk.  In the end it wouldn't help I would imagine but I would rather have something than nothing.

 

I would say that a lot of posters should probably just stop sharing their ideas and ask teachers what they want first.  But I don't know what I would want.  I have never felt unsafe while teaching but clearly that could change in a second.  I am also on the top floor so there is no getting out of a window (well there is but you know what I mean).  I don't want a gun in class...I don't want a knife...I don't want a taser (I would like to try a taser on some of you guys!).

[commando]

6 minutes ago, sho said:

I'm not a hunter @commando so you can help me understand this.  I fully understand wanting to hunt your own ground.   What is the benefit of hunting with a semi-automatic on your own ground versus a single shot?  What are you hunting on your own ground that the semi would be the gun of choice?  I know my dad went deer hunting and he used single shot.  Went pheasant hunting and used a shotgun.  He always came back with a kill, so I guess that's where I'm confused on why the semi would be the gun of choice for that.

if your first shot doesn't kill a badger...you will want that 2nd shot in a hurry

 

also...when upland game bird  hunting.  the limit is more than 1 of those...and sometimes you flush more than 1 at a time.  especially quail.

Edited February 22, 2018 by commando

[sho]

1 minute ago, commando said:

if your first shot doesn't kill a badger...you will want that 2nd shot in a hurry

 

Second shot..

 

 

 

[knapplc]

29 minutes ago, sho said:

1--Ban semi-automatic rifles.  There's no need for anyone in society to have one.   Manufactures stop making them.  Figure out some sort of buy back program and get registered weapons off the street. 

 

2--Secure all schools (because I'm not naive enough to believe that banning them gets them off the street) with bullet proof glass at all entrances and during the school day all entrances are locked.  The only way into the school from the public would then be by the office to be checked in.  Yes, that still leaves kids vulnerable at recess and PE, but will keep more kids safe in general.

 

3--Mandatory 1 week waiting period on the purchase of any other type of gun with a much more stringent back ground check.  Heavy fines for those areas that fail to report correctly (cough military for not reporting the domestic abuse with the TX shooter  cough).  Gun shows immediate purchases are no longer allowed.  Private sales can still be done.  Buyer must have a license (which would require the background check) seller would need to confirm buyer had one and both buyer and seller need to transfer ownership of that gun through the city/county.  Failure of seller to confirm buyer has a license results in major fine.

 

4--Much like cigarettes, create a heavy tax on the sale of bullets.   If you want to shoot them, it's going to cost a lot more and that tax goes to help fund better mental health facilities in the state of sale and hospitals that help victims of gun violence to help off-set that cost.   

 

I like some of these ideas, especially #1 - at least, not available to the public. I think there should be parks or reserves or something like that where we can go to shoot semi-automatics, but they're left on site when we're done.  You could even own one - but you'd keep it on the range, much like a lot of golfers keep their personal carts in the shed at the course.

 

#2 has potential, but we'd have to make sure it's not a fire hazard. As much as we want the kids kept in school & safe there, they have to be able to get out in case of emergency.

 

#4 is a decent idea, but hunting bullets need to be accessible even to poor people.  I know poor people still find it in their budget to smoke, but hunting needs to be accessible & not penalized. 

[VectorVictor]

5 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

 

I’m not convinced that teachers as a group are underpaid. Some are, while others are drastically overpaid. They also work about 8 months a year. Moreover, we spend a ridiculous amount on public education. Most districts spend around $13,000-15,000 per student per year. That’s a crazy amount of money. OPS has an annual budget of more than half a billion dollars a year. Unfortunately, they waste most of it on busing, paying hordes of do-nothing fat cat administrators, teaching grade schoolers the finer points of masturbation and anal sex, and all kinds of other worthless liberal nonsense. But the money to pay the teachers a decent salary is there. So is the money to pay them to protect their classrooms.

 

This was a big school, set up as a campus with multiple buildings. If there are armed guards and it’s well known there are armed guards, it not only protects the school from an attack, but discourages one in the first place. That’s the whole logic behind making soft targets into hard targets. 

 

Wow...I never thought I'd be able to see someone pack so much incorrect, bulls*** information into one post. That takes talent...

 

...anyway, since we still obviously have people believing the "teachers don't work" ignorance, let's break it down.

• 365 Days in a year.
  • 173 Days in a school year. 
  • 22 Teacher In-Service (read: Working) days.
  • 105 Weekend Days.
  • 65 Days without school (520 work hours)
    • Teachers are required where I'm at to obtain 36 hours of continuing education credits yearly, which translates into ~55 actual hours (because a three hour credit course typically runs 4-4.5 hours long, a two hour credit course runs 2.5-2.75 hours, etc.)
    • Teachers typically are required to work various school functions gratis. That includes (but is not limited to): dances, parent/teacher conferences, meet the teacher nights, science/math/art nights to the tune of ~20 hours per school year. 
    • Teachers typically work overtime, including going in early, working late, and working on weekends. Most of the teachers I know personally put in at least 10 hours of overtime a week, which averages to two hours of OT/day they're teaching. So for a school day of 173 days, that's ~345 hours. 
    • Accumulating all of the extra work teachers put in comes to ~420 hours. 
    • Subtracting the extra work leaves teachers with ~100 hours during a year, or roughly 2.5 weeks (at 40 hours/week) off per calendar year. 

As for school budgets, that's not a "crazy" amount of money. In fact, that's actually low, and it should be higher, as that level of funding typically means a lack of resources, overcrowded classrooms, and a low technology profile. Schooling children, when done correctly, isn't cheap, and it's something we as a country are not putting nearly enough money into. 

 

re: Sex Ed, you need to provide proof. That's just a ridiculous, inflammatory claim made to generalize and degrade a group of people you don't agree with by associating them with a known falsehood. 

 

As for the Florida school, it already has been documented that they had guards. Having more guns doesn't equate into safety--we've seen this since the repeal of the Brady Bill, and it would be documented further if the NRA whores in Congress would allow funding for CDC studies concerning gun violence. 

 

Also, let's be honest--the GOP has been systematically undercutting public school funding for decades now to the point where they're having to procure their own office and classroom supplies to effectively educate children. What in the holy f*** makes any sane, rational person think they're going to fund teachers getting their CHL and paying for guns, ammo, holsters, cleaning supplies, and a case, when they can't even bother to provide funding for Kleenex, construction paper, or glue?

Edited February 22, 2018 by VectorVictor

[commando]

6 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

#2 has potential, but we'd have to make sure it's not a fire hazard. As much as we want the kids kept in school & safe there, they have to be able to get out in case of emergency.

 

 

that isn't much of a concern really.  the doors are only locked from the outside.   they all open easily from the inside with the pushbar.   they are set up that way by law.

[TGHusker]

1 hour ago, VectorVictor said:

 

Wow...I never thought I'd be able to see someone pack so much incorrect, bulls*** information into one post. That takes talent...

 

...anyway, since we still obviously have people believing the "teachers don't work" ignorance, let's break it down.

• 365 Days in a year.
  • 173 Days in a school year. 
  • 22 Teacher In-Service (read: Working) days.
  • 105 Weekend Days.
  • 65 Days without school (520 work hours)
    • Teachers are required where I'm at to obtain 36 hours of continuing education credits yearly, which translates into ~55 actual hours (because a three hour credit course typically runs 4-4.5 hours long, a two hour credit course runs 2.5-2.75 hours, etc.)
    • Teachers typically are required to work various school functions gratis. That includes (but is not limited to): dances, parent/teacher conferences, meet the teacher nights, science/math/art nights to the tune of ~20 hours per school year. 
    • Teachers typically work overtime, including going in early, working late, and working on weekends. Most of the teachers I know personally put in at least 10 hours of overtime a week, which averages to two hours of OT/day they're teaching. So for a school day of 173 days, that's ~345 hours. 
    • Accumulating all of the extra work teachers put in comes to ~420 hours. 
    • Subtracting the extra work leaves teachers with ~100 hours during a year, or roughly 2.5 weeks (at 40 hours/week) off per calendar year. 

As for school budgets, that's not a "crazy" amount of money. In fact, that's actually low, and it should be higher, as that level of funding typically means a lack of resources, overcrowded classrooms, and a low technology profile. Schooling children, when done correctly, isn't cheap, and it's something we as a country are not putting nearly enough money into. 

 

re: Sex Ed, you need to provide proof. That's just a ridiculous, inflammatory claim made to generalize and degrade a group of people you don't agree with by associating them with a known falsehood. 

 

As for the Florida school, it already has been documented that they had guards. Having more guns doesn't equate into safety--we've seen this since the repeal of the Brady Bill, and it would be documented further if the NRA whores in Congress would allow funding for CDC studies concerning gun violence. 

 

Also, let's be honest--the GOP has been systematically undercutting public school funding for decades now to the point where they're having to procure their own office and classroom supplies to effectively educate children. What in the holy f*** makes any sane, rational person think they're going to fund teachers getting their CHL and paying for guns, ammo, holsters, cleaning supplies, and a case, when they can't even bother to provide funding for Kleenex, construction paper, or glue?

VV - Good reply to the BS. 

Priorities - it is time that we take a hard look at what is really important. 

We love our kids    - check

We believe education is important   - check

We know that the better educated person becomes a better citizen  - check

We know that the better educated person, gets a better job, can better support him/her self, contribute to society & pay taxes -  check

The contributing, self sustaining member of society doesn't become a burden on society via welfare  - check

Education is a top priority of govt - unfortunately not checked  --- Why is there such a disconnect?  Erroneous political phylosopy that you can cut ed spending and still be competitive

in the world market place.

Conservative Politicians should see the value of funding education as a top priority as it provides a greater return on the govt dollar invested than so many other things we do 

in govt.  There should be no gap between liberal or conservative on this topic.  It isn't or shouldn't be a political issue if one sees the longgggg term benefit of education on

society.  Ed should be the 1st priority of state govts and the last thing cut.

 

Speaking of education spending - we have some HS football fields here in Okla that many colleges would love to have.  This  in a state that ranks at or near the bottom in teacher pay.

Our legislature just failed again to raise teacher pay - so many are leaving Okla to higher paying states in the region. 

  So how does this relate to the topic - govt spending priority on facilities that are safe for our students and faculty.  Place a priority on mental health issues - so many of these shooters were recognized well before hand to be a potential threat - get them off the street and into hospitals that can help them long term.

 

 

[Ric Flair]

3 hours ago, knapplc said:

 

How about you go to SPLC's website and see for yourself?  They speak about both groups on their site.  Education is a wonderful thing.  Educate yourself. 

 

 

You realize the answer to each of the questions in bold is available online, free of charge, right? Why do you ask these questions when you can just google it for yourself?

 

Basic research is a transferable job skill. Try it.

 

I am educated my friend...more than you I would guess. Particularly when it comes to the SPLC and their rampant bigotry.

 

I guess you’re not familiar with rhetorical questions? I’ve seen OPS’ budget. i know exactly where and how they waste taxpayer money. As you don’t seem to know (or care), I was simply drawing your attention to it.

[Ric Flair]

3 hours ago, knapplc said:

 

Especially when you find the kind that jives with your preconceived notions like "OPS is the Venezuela of public school districts." 

 

That's a special kind of bias that doesn't lend itself to rational discussion, that's what that is. 

 

OPS is ABSOLUTELY the Venezuela of public school systems. They spent more than half a billion dollars of other peoples’ money on a largely failing product and continually insist they simply need more money. Their graduation rates are embarrassing. The fact that many of their graduates are functionally illiterate is even more so. But yeah, let’s give them even more money to waste.

[Ric Flair]

3 hours ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

I come from a family of teachers and have lifelong teacher friends. There are many, many hardworking teachers who get frustrated by both the Teachers Union and overpaid School Administrators, and fly-by-night experiments with the curriculum. I don't like the attempt by the Right to demonize teachers who are often dealing with the same issues as every business with a hierarchy. bureaucracy and misallocated budgets. Of all the things we don't need right now it's treating school teachers as the enemy. 

 

Absolutely right. No one gets screwed harder by the teachers’ unions or the administrations than the actual teachers. A heck of a lot of those folks are real heroes.