Russia

[knapplc]

Just now, nic said:

C’mon….let them send the jets. Send them to Poland first then let Poland deal with getting them their.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/09/politics/ukraine-russia-poland-fighter-jets/index.html

 

 

Why are you so eager to start WW III?

[NebraskaHarry]

9 minutes ago, nic said:

Now a non political post about the maternity  hospital. I have zero respect for the Lincoln Project. Mothers and children said to be buried in the rubble.
 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/09/europe/russia-invasion-ukraine-evacuations-03-09-intl/index.html

 

It's fine if you want to call out the Lincoln project for playing politics in a horrible situation. Yet in your post, you only call the Lincoln Project out and not Putin and Russia for the atrocity. Do you see the problem there?

[JJ Husker]

5 hours ago, BigRedBuster said:

I'm a little confused as to what Poland proposed.  This report claims they were offering to fly the jets to Germany and give them to the US.  OK...what would we do with them?  Why is it looked at as they would be giving the planes the the US?

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-surprised-polands-decision-give-it-fighter-jets-ukraine-2022-03-08/

 

 

 

4 hours ago, knapplc said:

 

It didn't make a lot of sense, and it's sounding more like this was a half of a thought that some apparatchik said out loud before any actual plans were made. There weren't any US/Poland/NATO discussions about this.

 

 

Paraphrased thoughts from an article I read…

The thinking was, Poland gives the migs to us, for us to provide to Ukraine, and we then provide/sell them F-16s to replace the fighter jets with their more desired F-16s.

 

The Polish migs would need to be modified to remove NATO technology before giving them to Ukraine. Poland had talked about doing earlier but decided against and recently changed their mind. Problem is all the logistics of doing it had not been settled with the US. It would be a tricky proposition for the US to get them into Ukraine without being seen as escalating with Russia and the US hadn’t agreed to it.

[BigRedBuster]

1 minute ago, JJ Husker said:

 

Paraphrased thoughts from an article I read…

The thinking was, Poland gives the migs to us, for us to provide to Ukraine, and we then provide/sell them F-16s to replace the fighter jets with their more desired F-16s.

 

The Polish migs would need to be modified to remove NATO technology before giving them to Ukraine. Poland had talked about doing earlier but decided against and recently changed their mind. Problem is all the logistics of doing it had not been settled with the US. It would be a tricky proposition for the US to get them into Ukraine without being seen as escalating with Russia and the US hadn’t agreed to it.

OK....why give them to us to give to Ukraine?  That's the part I don't understand.

 

Also, a question I just heard someone else ask.  What is it not a problem for us giving Ukraine other types of weapons, but all of a sudden it's horrible for us to give them planes?

[VectorVictor]

1 hour ago, nic said:

General Kellogg’s opinion: hope it’s true.

 

“ Every day that goes by, and we're now getting a day 15, they're losing this war. They're... losing in the information space where the entire world to see what's going on. They're losing in the military space. They're being beaten by Ukrainians and the whole world is going ‘what? We thought these guys were really 10 feet tall.' They're not. They're about five point five. It's almost like they're… I hate to say this because I'm probably insulting the state… but it's almost like the Vermont National Guard with nuclear weapons. They're not performing very well at all. Everybody is saying that. Everybody sees it.”

 

There was an economist that called Russia a "glorified gas station with nukes" in the leadup to Russia's invasion of Ukraine. This kind of goes along with that assessment. 

 

Also, there's a reason China has started putting money into military instead of working with Russia the past ~20 years. China probably knew all of this before anyone else did. 

[nic]

Interesting I read about Ukraine and Russia from Kissinger in 2014.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/henry-kissinger-to-settle-the-ukraine-crisis-start-at-the-end/2014/03/05/46dad868-a496-11e3-8466-d34c451760b9_story.html

 

[VectorVictor]

3 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

OK....why give them to us to give to Ukraine?  That's the part I don't understand.

 

Also, a question I just heard someone else ask.  What is it not a problem for us giving Ukraine other types of weapons, but all of a sudden it's horrible for us to give them planes?

 

It's not--it's that Russia is trying to do what Trump routinely does--pick an acceptable reaction you know your opponent will use (or project your own actions onto your opponent), claim it's an act of escalation, and threaten retaliation if it's implemented. 

 

In this case, Russia has said if we give Ukraine planes, it's an act of escalation, and Russia has already readied their nuclear personnel and threatened they could come into play. It's why Poland (via Germany) will give them their own MiGs, and the US will backfill with F-16s. 

[BigRedBuster]

2 minutes ago, VectorVictor said:

 

It's not--it's that Russia is trying to do what Trump routinely does--pick an acceptable reaction you know your opponent will use (or project your own actions onto your opponent), claim it's an act of escalation, and threaten retaliation if it's implemented. 

 

In this case, Russia has said if we give Ukraine planes, it's an act of escalation, and Russia has already readied their nuclear personnel and threatened they could come into play. It's why Poland (via Germany) will give them their own MiGs, and the US will backfill with F-16s. 

That's the way I thought it would work before.  However, in the articles I have read, it appears Poland wanted to give the US the MiGs so the US could give them to Ukraine.

 

I know it sounds trivial.  But, there must be a strategic reason why Poland wanted it that way.

 

Just my guess:  Poland doesn't want to look like they are giving them the planes because they are a small country and they don't want to be the ones viewed by Putin as escalation.  Poland would rather have the US viewed as the ones giving the planes since we are the stronger and more powerful opposition to Russia.

[BigRedBuster]

On a total side note.  

 

It amazes me that they can just pass around these planes and various countries have pilots that know how to fly them.

[Born N Bled Red]

1 hour ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

Gen Z isn't where the whiny a$$ b!^@hes are coming from. 

 

Boomers and early gen x. Take the cake here. 

[BigRedBuster]

Just now, Born N Bled Red said:

 

Boomers and early gen x. Take the cake here. 

I've pretty much experienced whiney b!^@hes from every generation.

[JJ Husker]

15 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

OK....why give them to us to give to Ukraine?  That's the part I don't understand.

 

Also, a question I just heard someone else ask.  What is it not a problem for us giving Ukraine other types of weapons, but all of a sudden it's horrible for us to give them planes?

Because we are the ones who could provide the F-16 replacements.

 

According to the article I read, the problem is not giving them Mig 29s but rather the physical logistics if getting them into Ukraine. After removing certain NATO specific technology we can’t simply fly them into Ukraine. That would be perceived as a problem by Russia as they would supposedly know where they took off from.

 

It doesn’t make a ton of sense but I get the gist of the issues. Seems like there should be a way considering we can get other weapons into Ukraine.

[JJ Husker]

11 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

On a total side note.  

 

It amazes me that they can just pass around these planes and various countries have pilots that know how to fly them.

Well Mig 29s are Russian tech and Ukraine used to basically be Russia, so……

 

Poland being a NATO country has updated to F-16s and is familiar with both.

[Guy Chamberlin]

Don't get me wrong. I love the Greatest Generation. My parents grew up during the Depression and World War II.

 

But the fact is, they didn't have a choice. Greatness was thrust upon them.

 

And by Greatness I mean sacrifice. 

[JJ Husker]

1 hour ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

Gen Z isn't where the whiny a$$ b!^@hes are coming from. 

 

13 minutes ago, Born N Bled Red said:

 

Boomers and early gen x. Take the cake here. 

It’s not really a generational issue. I’d say it has much more to do with political ideology.

 

I’m from the last few years of Boomers and I haven’t whined about wearing a mask or gas prices. In fact I view higher gas prices as a sort of charitable contribution in helping Ukraine defeat Russia.

 

There are whiners and non-whiners in every generation.