Adrian Martinez

[Guy Chamberlin]

23 minutes ago, J-MAGIC said:

Regarding the "Adrian had a fire lit under him" narrative, Adrian has never really been the problem, so I don't buy this either. His play dipped last year as his supporting cast went off a cliff and he got injured, and not enough of our fans were smart/patient enough to realize this and got stars in their eyes after a freshman wide receiver completed one wide-open pass out of a Wildcat package. He then looked just okay against two of the ten best defenses in the country to open this year and pressure mounted for him to get yanked, and Frost obliged. AM didn't turn into Marcus Mariota or anything and has his areas where he struggles, but he has been a good quarterback this entire time and would probably be an all-conference type of guy if we had any competent Big Ten receivers playing who weren't freshmen and sophomores.

 

I think even Frost and Martinez have admitted that Adrian regressed in his decision-making last season, as was witnessed in many plays that had nothing to do with injuries or supporting casts. Adrian's supporting cast was probably better last year, for that matter. Unfair as it my seem, Luke was running the same offense slightly better when given the chance. So this isn't really about placing blame, it's giving credit to Adrian for stepping up his game and earning back his spot. That's what leaders do. 

 

When Devine Ozigbo had a breakout senior season, people were saying he was finally being recognized for his talent. But it was Ozibgo who saw his career going nowhere and spent the off-season losing weight, gaining strength, and totally refocusing his efforts on a team where the new coach had him slotted as the fourth string running back. Sometimes it really is the individual lighting their own fire. 

[Guy Chamberlin]

19 hours ago, BigRedBuster said:

@Guy Chamberlin Luke's completion percentage was all based on short passes.  He is horrible down the field and that severely limits what our offense can do.  Defenses have adjusted to knowing he can't throw past 10 yards and it's shut down the rest of our offense.

 

 

Well Scott Frost's offense is based on short passes, and Adrian's average of 7.2 yards per attempt vs Luke's average of 6.3 isn't that significant, especially in the sample size. Both QBs have a sweet spot of 15 to 20 yards on crossing patterns and quick sideline outs, both have made great mid-distance throws on the run.  Neither does well on the over-the-should deep routes. At the moment our Junior quarterback seems to have better consistency and growing confidence over the Freshman quarterback who failed to match some very high expectations. 

[BigRedBuster]

2 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

Well Scott Frost's offense is based on short passes, and Adrian's average of 7.2 yards per attempt vs Luke's average of 6.3 isn't that significant, especially in the sample size. Both QBs have a sweet spot of 15 to 20 yards on crossing patterns and quick sideline outs, both have made great mid-distance throws on the run.  Neither does well on the over-the-should deep routes. At the moment our Junior quarterback seems to have better consistency and growing confidence over the Freshman quarterback who failed to match some very high expectations. 

Frost's offense does have a lot of short passes.  But, it also needs mid to deep threat to make it all work.  2AM is not perfect on those throws but, as we saw in the Purdue game, he can make them.  But, Luke's passes aren't even in the same area code of the WR.

 

Thank GOD the quote button is back.

[Husker in WI]

31 minutes ago, Hilltop said:

J-Magic, while I agree he has had serious supporting cast issues, some of his struggles over the past season and a half are 100% on him.  A lot of improvement has been documented but the one thing that really stands out the most to me is his short throw accuracy.  He flat missed a pile of throws last year on swing passes, screens, etc.  This year he is hitting the majority of those throws in stride.  What created the improvement?  My guess is it was a combination of things but having solid competition has to at least be a factor.  

 

I also remember as many dropped screens last year as I do missed throws, with the narrative being "he threw it too hard!!" He absolutely had accuracy and decision making problems last year, but I also think the injuries and lack of a supporting cast played a huge part. Receivers were alligator-arming them too because the blocking was bad and they were afraid of getting lit up. The worst miss on a screen pass last year was Vedral against Minnesota. Martinez had a couple really bad misses against Purdue, and I think that's where most of the "he can't throw a swing pass" narrative is coming from. He zips it more than McCaffrey, which isn't really a plus or minus - smaller margin of error, less chance of it getting picked or the receiver getting destroyed.

[Undone]

1 hour ago, Hilltop said:

J-Magic, while I agree he has had serious supporting cast issues, some of his struggles over the past season and a half are 100% on him.  A lot of improvement has been documented but the one thing that really stands out the most to me is his short throw accuracy.  He flat missed a pile of throws last year on swing passes, screens, etc.  This year he is hitting the majority of those throws in stride.  What created the improvement?  My guess is it was a combination of things but having solid competition has to at least be a factor.  

 

I don't want to put words in your mouth, so you tell me if I'm wrong. But are you saying that he wasn't hitting short throws last year because he was apathetic and uncompetitive but now he's hitting them because a redshirt freshman was sort of hot on his tails for a two game streak?

 

Because I can't get behind that.

 

What created the improvement? Probably not being injured and not feeling like he's going to be sacked within one second of the ball being snapped on every passing down.

 

Edit: The "supporting case" element isn't just receivers who are good at getting open - it's also the offense's pass blocking as a whole. I also think that Lubick & Verduzco probably helped him hone in on why he was putting bad touch on those short balls in the offseason.

[J-MAGIC]

1 hour ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

I think even Frost and Martinez have admitted that Adrian regressed in his decision-making last season, as was witnessed in many plays that had nothing to do with injuries or supporting casts. Adrian's supporting cast was probably better last year, for that matter. Unfair as it my seem, Luke was running the same offense slightly better when given the chance. So this isn't really about placing blame, it's giving credit to Adrian for stepping up his game and earning back his spot. That's what leaders do. 

 

When Devine Ozigbo had a breakout senior season, people were saying he was finally being recognized for his talent. But it was Ozibgo who saw his career going nowhere and spent the off-season losing weight, gaining strength, and totally refocusing his efforts on a team where the new coach had him slotted as the fourth string running back. Sometimes it really is the individual lighting their own fire. 

 

Not coming at you or anything, but you are illustrating my whole point -- you're blaming one guy for the actions of 11. "Decision-making" (or all the other generic stuff people have been trotting out as criticisms of Adrian for the past year-and-a-half) isn't just on a quarterback. If you, as the quarterback, know that against Cover 3 a post route is supposed to settle into open space on a hook curl, but you don't trust your receiver to do that so you hold the ball, is that a bad decision on you? You could just wing it out there where the receiver is supposed to be and possibly have it intercepted and have "made the right decision" but hurt the team. A lot of the things Adrian did wrong last year can be directly attributed to either 1) not trusting those around him to do what they were supposed to or 2) being injured. Based on who we're seeing on the field this year (Warner and Falck are "trustable" options) and what coaches have said about "getting better around the quarterbacks", this stuff was a big issue. But for some reason every time fans saw the offense not working or Adrian miss a throw it was "aDrIAn'S rEGreSsInG, bENCh HiM" instead of looking with some context at the real causes. Now that some of those things are being fixed and he's playing better, it's "Adrian needed to be pushed". It's all bologna, always was bologna, and we never learn.

 

And Luke was not running the same offense as the other two QBs. He was essentially running a version of the Wildcat. He had a very small package of plays and was not asked to make reads down the field as Adrian and Vedral were. If you want to argue Vedral was better than AM, I think that's much more fair. But Luke's production at QB was always a flash in the pan if you actually wanted to look at it critically.

[Undone]

30 minutes ago, J-MAGIC said:

If you want to argue Vedral was better than AM, I think that's much more fair.

 

And I don't think Guy Chamberlain is arguing that. But just for fun, Vedral did get his shot against Minnesota last year and that game was another train wreck offensively. Pass protection and run blocking was piss-poor, and thus we couldn't move the ball.

 

That game is actually a really good example to underscore some of these points.

[Guy Chamberlin]

4 minutes ago, J-MAGIC said:

 

Not coming at you or anything, but you are illustrating my whole point -- you're blaming one guy for the actions of 11. "Decision-making" (or all the other generic stuff people have been trotting out as criticisms of Adrian for the past year-and-a-half) isn't just on a quarterback. If you, as the quarterback, know that against Cover 3 a post route is supposed to settle into open space on a hook curl, but you don't trust your receiver to do that so you hold the ball, is that a bad decision on you? You could just wing it out there where the receiver is supposed to be and possibly have it intercepted and have "made the right decision" but hurt the team. A lot of the things Adrian did wrong last year can be directly attributed to either 1) not trusting those around him to do what they were supposed to or 2) being injured. Based on who we're seeing on the field this year (Warner and Falck are "trustable" options) and what coaches have said about "getting better around the quarterbacks", this stuff was a big issue. But for some reason every time fans saw the offense not working or Adrian miss a throw it was "aDrIAn'S rEGreSsInG, bENCh HiM" instead of looking with some context at the real causes. Now that some of those things are being fixed and he's playing better, it's "Adrian needed to be pushed". It's all bologna, always was bologna, and we never learn.

 

And Luke was not running the same offense as the other two QBs. He was essentially running a version of the Wildcat. He had a very small package of plays and was not asked to make reads down the field as Adrian and Vedral were. If you want to argue Vedral was better than AM, I think that's much more fair. But Luke's production at QB was always a flash in the pan if you actually wanted to look at it critically.

 

Decision making also means making quick decisions whether to run, pass, or scramble, how long to wait for the primary receiver to get separation, and when to kill a play that isn't working rather than force a play and risk a turnover. I get what you're saying about impatient fans, but as mentioned Scott Frost and Adrian Martinez himself acknowledged that Adrian lost some of his confidence last year, and it appeared to be bleeding into his Junior season. 

 

If you want to look at it critically, Frost essentially platooned both quarterbacks to start the season. Both were good runners -- but McCaffrey was a little better. Both were inconsistent passers, but Adrian was a little more consistent. In Frost's tempo offense, McCaffrey was a little quicker getting the team to the line and executing the bread & butter plays --- that's from Frost himself, not armchair Husker fans Given the chance to start against Penn State, McCaffrey played well enough to win the game, a performance pretty similar to a Martinez performance. Both QBs often  missed seeing wide open receivers, and neither did a good job of getting the WRs involved. 

 

McCaffrey then had a meltdown performance against Illinois -- Martinez has had those, too --- at which point Frost turned to back to his Junior QB over his Freshman QB. Martinez responded with a good statistical game against Iowa, but a costly turnover. Then followed it up with a highly efficient game against a pretty bad Purdue team. But his confidence is back and that could make a big difference going forward. Not sure why you're quick to dismiss the mental game, or simply throw the receivers under the bus. . 

 

Except for the predictable one series package Frost gave McCaffrey against Purdue, McCaffrey has run the same offense as  Martinez. The QB draw is a designed play for both QBs, but McCaffrey runs it slightly better, so he runs it more often. Luke has only 22 fewer pass attempts than Martinez. That's not a wildcat. 

 

The difference between Martinez and McCaffrey isn't night and day. It's more dawn and day. As mentioned previously, we can congratulate Adrian without s#!tting on Luke quite so much. 

[J-MAGIC]

47 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

Decision making also means making quick decisions whether to run, pass, or scramble, how long to wait for the primary receiver to get separation, and when to kill a play that isn't working rather than force a play and risk a turnover. I get what you're saying about impatient fans, but as mentioned Scott Frost and Adrian Martinez himself acknowledged that Adrian lost some of his confidence last year, and it appeared to be bleeding into his Junior season. 

 

If you want to look at it critically, Frost essentially platooned both quarterbacks to start the season. Both were good runners -- but McCaffrey was a little better. Both were inconsistent passers, but Adrian was a little more consistent. In Frost's tempo offense, McCaffrey was a little quicker getting the team to the line and executing the bread & butter plays --- that's from Frost himself, not armchair Husker fans Given the chance to start against Penn State, McCaffrey played well enough to win the game, a performance pretty similar to a Martinez performance. Both QBs often  missed seeing wide open receivers, and neither did a good job of getting the WRs involved. 

 

McCaffrey then had a meltdown performance against Illinois -- Martinez has had those, too --- at which point Frost turned to back to his Junior QB over his Freshman QB. Martinez responded with a good statistical game against Iowa, but a costly turnover. Then followed it up with a highly efficient game against a pretty bad Purdue team. But his confidence is back and that could make a big difference going forward. Not sure why you're quick to dismiss the mental game, or simply throw the receivers under the bus. . 

 

Except for the predictable one series package Frost gave McCaffrey against Purdue, McCaffrey has run the same offense as  Martinez. The QB draw is a designed play for both QBs, but McCaffrey runs it slightly better, so he runs it more often. Luke has only 22 fewer pass attempts than Martinez. That's not a wildcat. 

 

The difference between Martinez and McCaffrey isn't night and day. It's more dawn and day. As mentioned previously, we can congratulate Adrian without s#!tting on Luke quite so much. 

 

I very much disagree. There is some overlap in playcalling with the QB draws and that mesh play, but the playbooks are very different with Luke and Adrian in the game. With Adrian in we are running the offense we ran Frost's first two years. With Luke in we have essentially been running a single-wing. 

[Hilltop]

Me waiting for Guy to point out the obvious similarities in the offense each have run this season...

[RedDenver]

42 minutes ago, J-MAGIC said:

 

I very much disagree. There is some overlap in playcalling with the QB draws and that mesh play, but the playbooks are very different with Luke and Adrian in the game. With Adrian in we are running the offense we ran Frost's first two years. With Luke in we have essentially been running a single-wing. 

A single-wing in which LM threw 26 times in his one start? I get what you're saying, but I think you've gone a bit far in the hyperbole.

[ColoradoHusk]

3 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

A single-wing in which LM threw 26 times in his one start? I get what you're saying, but I think you've gone a bit far in the hyperbole.

Luke also ran the ball 26 times in that start against Illinois, and after the 1st half was on pace to break the NU record for most carries in a game.  Many of those 26 pass attempts were in the 2nd half when NU was trying to come back from a large deficit.  I have also thought that the offense under Luke has resembled a single-wing attack.

[RedDenver]

13 minutes ago, ColoradoHusk said:

Luke also ran the ball 26 times in that start against Illinois, and after the 1st half was on pace to break the NU record for most carries in a game.  Many of those 26 pass attempts were in the 2nd half when NU was trying to come back from a large deficit.  I have also thought that the offense under Luke has resembled a single-wing attack.

You're misremembering the 1st vs 2nd half passing. LM had thrown 16 times at the half (scroll down and there are halftime stats): https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.huskermax.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2018%2F11%2F2020-Illinois-at-Nebraska-football-gam-e-stats.pdf

 

LM actually threw 16/26=62% of his passes in the 1st half. I don't think that offense looked like a single-wing.

[ColoradoHusk]

1 minute ago, RedDenver said:

You're misremembering the 1st vs 2nd half passing. LM had thrown 16 times at the half (scroll down and there are halftime stats): https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.huskermax.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2018%2F11%2F2020-Illinois-at-Nebraska-football-gam-e-stats.pdf

 

LM actually threw 16/26=62% of his passes in the 1st half. I don't think that offense looked like a single-wing.

Fair enough.  Thanks for pointing out those stats.  I was wrong on the break down of passes attempted in each half.  However, Luke also had 20 carries in the first half, which is a TON.  I think the thoughts about NU being a single-wing under Luke are based around the successful plays which Luke has run are him taking a shotgun snap, and letting him run.

[Enhance]

7 hours ago, J-MAGIC said:

 

Not coming at you or anything, but you are illustrating my whole point -- you're blaming one guy for the actions of 11. "Decision-making" (or all the other generic stuff people have been trotting out as criticisms of Adrian for the past year-and-a-half) isn't just on a quarterback. If you, as the quarterback, know that against Cover 3 a post route is supposed to settle into open space on a hook curl, but you don't trust your receiver to do that so you hold the ball, is that a bad decision on you? You could just wing it out there where the receiver is supposed to be and possibly have it intercepted and have "made the right decision" but hurt the team. A lot of the things Adrian did wrong last year can be directly attributed to either 1) not trusting those around him to do what they were supposed to or 2) being injured. Based on who we're seeing on the field this year (Warner and Falck are "trustable" options) and what coaches have said about "getting better around the quarterbacks", this stuff was a big issue. But for some reason every time fans saw the offense not working or Adrian miss a throw it was "aDrIAn'S rEGreSsInG, bENCh HiM" instead of looking with some context at the real causes. Now that some of those things are being fixed and he's playing better, it's "Adrian needed to be pushed". It's all bologna, always was bologna, and we never learn.

 

And Luke was not running the same offense as the other two QBs. He was essentially running a version of the Wildcat. He had a very small package of plays and was not asked to make reads down the field as Adrian and Vedral were. If you want to argue Vedral was better than AM, I think that's much more fair. But Luke's production at QB was always a flash in the pan if you actually wanted to look at it critically.

TBH I'm not sure how you read Guy's post and took that his him "blaming one guy for the actions of 11."

 

Few have said Adrian is exclusively at fault, or even suggested as much. Horrible snaps, inconsistent line play, receivers not getting open, penalties... there are a lot of things that hold back this offense and have virtually nothing to do with Adrian. But, he too has had his struggles and made poor decisions. Frost and he have both said this.

 

As for the calls to bench him... Frost seemed to think it was the right move, correct? So he must've felt that Adrian was not giving them the best chance to be successful at that time. AM was able to fight back and steady the ship. I don't see what's wrong with acknowleding this.